Vodafone McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes

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westech
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Re: Vodafone McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes

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The car has been designed to operate within a very small ride-height window to maximise downforce, particularly at high speeds. Rising rate springs are used on the front to keep the car in this narrow window, with very stiff rates towards the end of their range. Into several slow corners this year - notably Bahrain - the McLarens could be seen to be bouncing on the sidewalls of their front tyres, setting up a rocking motion in the whole car as the stiff suspension didn't have the compliance to smother the opposing loads. Other times the problem has manifest itself as a difficulty in switching the front tyres on, in getting them quickly up to the correct operating temperature - as the stiffness in the car minimises the weight transference under braking that would normally aid in generating temperature. Recent rear suspension geometry changes have been to address this issue.

The relentless Silverstone rain of Friday and Saturday rather mixed things up, but even so Hamilton was quickest in the heavy rain of Friday. "We were quick immediately on the full wet tyres," said engineering director Paddy Lowe. "You cannot do that without good downforce." Into qualifying things were still looking ok. When everyone was on full wets, Hamilton was among the very quickest.

But as the rain held off for the crucial Q3 session bringing the track into intermediates territory, a McLaren problem was revealed: it could not get these tyres up to temperature in the one flying lap Hamilton had left after initially opting for wets. His gripless lap was good only for the fourth row, while Fernando Alonso and Mark Webber shared the front row. The Red Bull - with its latest rear body upgrades - was clearly better than Webber had expected through the fast corners and the Ferrari now seems strong on all types of track. But it was impossible to know how the McLaren would have compared in more straightforward circumstances. Was its difficulty on intermediate tyres derived from a set-up issue or was it intrinsic to the car's stiff platform concept? "There are things we can do with tyre pressures which we think will resolve it," said Whitmarsh on Saturday evening.

Poor showing from Hamilton
At that time the forecasts were saying race day would be wet. The car's behaviour on inters was therefore potentially crucial. As it happened, Sunday afternoon was warm and sunny throughout the course of the race but still the McLaren's ultimate pace was difficult to assess. Hamilton's poor grid position ensured he was in a queue forced to circulate at the speed of Michael Schumacher's third-place Mercedes while Alonso and Webber disappeared up front.

But a comparison of Hamilton's speed on his prime tyres - like those used by Alonso to lead throughout his first stint - as the others pitted ahead of him and left him in clear air is illuminating. From laps 14 through to 17 he was consistently lapping in the low-mid 1m 38s, with a best of 1m 38.3s. This was directly comparable with Alonso's pace on the same tyre before he'd pitted - and Lewis' best lap was actually a couple of tenths faster. There are complicating fuel load and tyre deg factors making exact comparison impossible, but as a generality the McLaren's potential pace in that first stint was as good as the race-leading Ferrari's; it's just that its poor starting position had put it in a queue where that couldn't be demonstrated.

Had it qualified in its more usual position - and this was the first time all year Hamilton had not been in the top three fastest qualifiers - there's nothing to suggest it wouldn't have ran at or near the front.

But Hamilton's second and third stints, on option and prime tyres respectively, were not good. "We didn't find the pace we were expecting from the softer tyre," said Lowe, "and in his final stint on the hard Lewis was about 1s per lap slower than he should have been, given what we'd seen on these tyres in the first stint. Lewis said they felt like a completely different type of tyre to those he'd had on in the first stint. The track was hotter than forecast and that seemed to hurt us."

Button reflects on 'tough' race
No-one has yet fully understood the vagaries of this year's tyres, but the McLaren does seem more sensitive than most to changes in conditions - of tyre spec, track temperature and fuel loads. "It was very difficult this weekend keeping the car on that knife edge where it works," Lowe admitted, "and the limited running we were able to do in the practices certainly contributed to that."

Whilst it's true that everyone suffered limited practice running at Silverstone, it's also true that such a limitation would impact more seriously on anyone with a car that is more sensitive to set up, which requires a lot of fine-tuning of a lot of variables to get it in the appropriate set up window.

The Silverstone weather seems to have underlined just how narrow that window is in a car conceived around ultimate aerodynamic performance. The combination of this year's Pirellis with the loss of full-blown diffusers has made the penalty for dropping out of the perfect set of conditions much more severe and seems to have exposed the McLaren - a car that is super-fast when all is right - as particularly sensitive.

Striving for the ultimate at the expense of the averages has also given McLaren the schizophrenic pit-stop performance this year - the fastest times but the biggest number of problems. Is that same philosophy responsible for the car's performance?

westech
westech
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Re: Vodafone McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes

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Ride heights are measured while the car is stationary and they'll invariably change once the car is out on the track doing some reasonable speed. Downforce, pitch, roll, suspension stiffness and other factors will cause the real distance between the bottom of the car and the ground to change from the measured ride height.

One way to make sure the "moving ride height" remains close to the stationary, measured ride height, is to run extremely stiff suspension. This is not always desirable as the car will often be too nimble for the drivers and tyre wear will be high.

Running softer suspension is not really the answer either, as if the suspension is too soft and the ride height is too low, the car is going to "bottom out". Not only will this slow the car down,

A compromise between stiff and soft suspension has to be made.

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raymondu999
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Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 07:31

Re: Vodafone McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes

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westech wrote:......
Perhaps you could credit your source? http://www1.skysports.com/formula-1/new ... sensitive-
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westech
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Re: Vodafone McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes

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raymondu999 wrote:
westech wrote:....
Perhaps you could credit your source? http://www1.skysports.com/formula-1/new ... sensitive-
Thanks rey, next time i will include source and quote.

Owen.C93
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Re: Vodafone McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes

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Shakeman wrote:
Owen.C93 wrote: What was a problem was when 4 or 5 races in the floor was still on that same limit every time which shows that it wasn't a manufacturing error but rather McLaren were deliberately reaching those limits for a performance gain.
Why shouldn't a team use every bit of tolerance to their advantage? If Newey had done it, it would've been down to the genius of Newey to constant probe the boundaries and exploit the grey areas.
You don't know that at all. RBR have had to make more changes to their car in the past few seasons than all other combined teams I bet. The reason they shouldn't use it is because it's pretty obvious what a manufacturing tolerance allowance is for. Their floor was illegal and there's only so many times you can say "woops, we've made it slightly convex again and have extra downforce, silly us".
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Shakeman
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Re: Vodafone McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes

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Owen.C93 wrote:
Shakeman wrote:
Owen.C93 wrote: What was a problem was when 4 or 5 races in the floor was still on that same limit every time which shows that it wasn't a manufacturing error but rather McLaren were deliberately reaching those limits for a performance gain.
Why shouldn't a team use every bit of tolerance to their advantage? If Newey had done it, it would've been down to the genius of Newey to constant probe the boundaries and exploit the grey areas.
You don't know that at all. RBR have had to make more changes to their car in the past few seasons than all other combined teams I bet..
You don't know that at all...

If a team can work within tolerances set by the FIA then they should be allowed to use what's left for performance. That's what McLaren were doing which is what any other industry does for performance, efficiency or monetary gain.

It strikes me a more honest attempt at gaining performance than the other school of we'll put stuff on the car and remove it when we're found out or we'll devise flexible aero that the FIA can't test adequately.

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N12ck
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Re: Vodafone McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes

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interesting quote from auto123.com
"Just look at them (the 2012 cars) and ours looks different from the others," he said after Silverstone.

"That's a significant difference," Hamilton added, "(although) it's too big a change (for McLaren to make) for this season."
http://www.auto123.com/en/news/f1-lewis ... tid=145416
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CjC
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Re: Vodafone McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes

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N12ck wrote:interesting quote from auto123.com
"Just look at them (the 2012 cars) and ours looks different from the others," he said after Silverstone.

"That's a significant difference," Hamilton added, "(although) it's too big a change (for McLaren to make) for this season."
http://www.auto123.com/en/news/f1-lewis ... tid=145416
Yea I read something similar on the autosport or sky website, seems Hamilton has written the idea of a stepped nose off for this season, or has he? He did say we are looking into it with this car.. Who knows, it's just pure speculation about a nose upgrade.
I've read an article in the telegraph about mclarens woes and they too have suggested mclaren 'decent, bigger, more visual' upgrade will be to the 'rear top bodywork'. Can only be something to do with the exhausts surely?
Just a fan's point of view

Nando
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Re: Vodafone McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes

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CjC wrote:He did say we are looking into it with this car.. Who knows,
You haven´t noticed the raised nosecone?

Frankly i don´t think raised nose is the way to go. Or instantly a front runner because of it.

2009, won races with low nose
2010, won races with low nose
2011, won races with low nose
2012, won a race with low nose

Clearly it´s still possible to win races no matter what philosophy you choose and obviously high nose isn´t the holy grail as every other team haven´t been equal to RBR despite their high nose.

Am i the only one finding it a bit of a joke to see Mclaren being stubborn about the low nose, assuring everyone that there´s pro´s and con´s with both and that there´s good reason they design the car around a low nose while everyone else are raising the chassis as much as possible only for Mclaren to change their mind right in the middle of a season?

So now they have some weird hybrid instead.
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CjC
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Re: Vodafone McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes

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Nando wrote:
CjC wrote:He did say we are looking into it with this car.. Who knows,
You haven´t noticed the raised nosecone?

Frankly i don´t think raised nose is the way to go. Or instantly a front runner because of it.

2009, won races with low nose
2010, won races with low nose
2011, won races with low nose
2012, won a race with low nose

Clearly it´s still possible to win races no matter what philosophy you choose and obviously high nose isn´t the holy grail as every other team haven´t been equal to RBR despite their high nose.

Am i the only one finding it a bit of a joke to see Mclaren being stubborn about the low nose, assuring everyone that there´s pro´s and con´s with both and that there´s good reason they design the car around a low nose while everyone else are raising the chassis as much as possible only for Mclaren to change their mind right in the middle of a season?

So now they have some weird hybrid instead.
No I havent noticed it, when did they put a high nose on!?

Considering I'm quoting Lewis Hamilton right after the British GP I think he and certainly I am talking about a raised chassis height, which is too big of a challenge mid-season. I do agree that changing the chassis now will be a mistake because as you say if they brought a new high chassis it will be a balled up compromise.

I'm just glad they are developing the rear and not wasting effort on the front. Leave that for next year, but then again they might be changing the rules for the nose/chassis height....
Just a fan's point of view

ell66
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Re: Vodafone McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes

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i dont think the nose is that big an issue, its not that much lower than the other cars.
The general base of the car seems poor, just like silverstone last year when the blowing was heavily restricted.
The cars is always far to stiff, eats its tyres and has a very narrow operating window, couldnt get them upto heat in qually and overheated them in the race? baffling when you see many other cars get the tyres working in both circumstances.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Vodafone McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes

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I think their understanding of the tyres is weak.

With the tyres there is not much you can do setup wise... Pressure, camber, preheating, differntial settings, anti-dive, scrub radius.. blah blah blah.. These things are what Mclaren CAN DO with their genius enigneers, advanced instruments and supercomputers - quite easily in fact.

However.. the other half of the story, the TYRE conditioning by the DRIVER... how you preheat the tyres, the heat treatment, the way you brake, how you accelerate, how you roll on the tyres. This has to be understood first by the drivers WITH the help of the engineers THEN the computer analysis, simulation and optimisation comes after... then that is given back to the driver for him to EXECUTE the "tyre activation and maintainance" process in the race.

It's obvious that the second part has flew over the heads of the Mclaren drivers and the engineers. They are not working in harmony to analyse and solve problems. This the crux of why other team/driver combo's have figured out the tyres and Mclaren have not. Here, lets check out who has mastered the tyres, getting the tyres to work in pretty much all conditions since Bahrain.

1. Lotus - Romain, Kim.
2. Redbull - Marc, Sebastian
3. Ferrari - Alonso, Massa (oh yes he has, and damn good at it too!)
4. Sauber - Perez, Kobayashi
5. Williams - Pastor "I have mastered the tyres" Maldonado (and I believe him too), and Senna to an extent
6. Mercedes - Excellent race pace by MSC and Rosberg in the later stages of the race.
7. HRT - Excellent race pace.. to bad the car is so slow.. needs downforce.

Guess who has NOT mastered them?

8. Mclaren - Hamilton.... and ... Butoon.
9. Caterham - that one second in hand from the tyres sure would get thim into Q2!
10. Toro Rosso - Hmmm maybe the drivers..
11. Virgin mobile - Poor performance. Poor as hell. They do not understand the tyres. they don't even know how to put them on in a pitstop.
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Coefficient
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Re: Vodafone McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes

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gridwalker wrote:We're talking about a 3mm tolerance here : how much extra rake/diffuser volume would they have been able to gain from exploiting this? The ride height increase would be less than that created by the additional tread on wet-weather tyres, or even the potential deformation within a loaded tyre, so I am curious how this could drop a winning car back into the midfield.

Please, could someone give me an explanation how this loophole created such a performance differential?
The floor meant the suspension could be mounted in less severe positions whilsts still achieving the desired diffuser rake. Once the floor was removed the suspension was no longer an optimised design. This is why we see Mclaren testing alternative suspension geometry race after race. As the pick up points are normally on the gearbox, they probably need a redesigned casing to put the suspension precisely where it needs to be and I think this could be something we will see at Hockenheim.

3mm makes an enormous difference to underfloor aerodynamics. That is why we see the stepped nose and it is also why we have seen teams trying to flex wings down, flex floors in the middle and its also why since the refuelling ban we have seen teams develop systems that allow them to lower ride heights in the pit stops as the fuel burns off.

Say for arguments sake the floor from a point 600mm back from the front lip of the bib splitter extended a further 2000mm to the tip of the diffuser. On a flat bottomed car with a ride height of 50mm and floor width of 1800mm the floor would have a static volume of 180,000,000 cubic mm. If you added a slope at the same 600mm point that made the floor terminate 3mm higher at the tip of the diffuser you would add a further 3,602,700 cubic mm of volume to the floor.

If the floor had a kink at the same 600mm point instead of a gradual slope you would add a further 10,800,000 cubic mm of volume.

The point being that the trick floor allowed them to design the suspension geometry without some of the compromises associated with needng to be able to jack the car up to achieve the desired rake. Now the floor has gone they're having to rethink the supsension design which is affecting the ride characteristics which is affecting the stability of the aero map which is affecting tyre wear and driver confidence and so on. It's like playing kerplunk. Pull one straw out and everything moves.
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Huntresa
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Re: Vodafone McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes

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Coefficient wrote:
gridwalker wrote:We're talking about a 3mm tolerance here : how much extra rake/diffuser volume would they have been able to gain from exploiting this? The ride height increase would be less than that created by the additional tread on wet-weather tyres, or even the potential deformation within a loaded tyre, so I am curious how this could drop a winning car back into the midfield.

Please, could someone give me an explanation how this loophole created such a performance differential?
The floor meant the suspension could be mounted in less severe positions whilsts still achieving the desired diffuser rake. Once the floor was removed the suspension was no longer an optimised design. This is why we see Mclaren testing alternative suspension geometry race after race. As the pick up points are normally on the gearbox, they probably need a redesigned casing to put the suspension precisely where it needs to be and I think this could be something we will see at Hockenheim.

3mm makes an enormous difference to underfloor aerodynamics. That is why we see the stepped nose and it is also why we have seen teams trying to flex wings down, flex floors in the middle and its also why since the refuelling ban we have seen teams develop systems that allow them to lower ride heights in the pit stops as the fuel burns off.

Say for arguments sake the floor from a point 600mm back from the front lip of the bib splitter extended a further 2000mm to the tip of the diffuser. On a flat bottomed car with a ride height of 50mm and floor width of 1800mm the floor would have a static volume of 180,000,000 cubic mm. If you added a slope at the same 600mm point that made the floor terminate 3mm higher at the tip of the diffuser you would add a further 3,602,700 cubic mm of volume to the floor.

If the floor had a kink at the same 600mm point instead of a gradual slope you would add a further 10,800,000 cubic mm of volume.

The point being that the trick floor allowed them to design the suspension geometry without some of the compromises associated with needng to be able to jack the car up to achieve the desired rake. Now the floor has gone they're having to rethink the supsension design which is affecting the ride characteristics which is affecting the stability of the aero map which is affecting tyre wear and driver confidence and so on. It's like playing kerplunk. Pull one straw out and everything moves.

+1 Finally someone who uss actual numbers!

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Jackles-UK
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Re: Vodafone McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes

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The whole splitter/floor saga has been blown a little out of proportion.

The floor (if I remember rightly) was never deemed out-and-out "illegal" such as the RBR tyre squirt slots. Charlie Whiting/FIA said that after four rounds of the floor being manufactured to the outer limit of tolerances that McLaren were not operating within "the spirit of the rules". Not outside the rules, just taking advantage of a leniency given to those whose manufacturing capabilities & budgets can't guarantee perfection everytime. There was a tech directive issued and the tolerances were reduced for all teams (... I think).

That's not to say that in doing so it hasn't wreaked total havoc with the car. With a part so important to working air round to the rear (especially given the lower nose) even a tiny adjustment could, I'd imagine, cause chaos for the aero >> grip >> tyre wear issues.