Vodafone McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes

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Re: Vodafone McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes

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[
CjC wrote:Considering I'm quoting Lewis Hamilton right after the British GP I think he and certainly I am talking about a raised chassis height, which is too big of a challenge mid-season.
Clearly you have forgotten what you write even though it´s two posts above your respond.
CjC wrote:seems Hamilton has written the idea of a stepped nose off for this season, or has he? He did say we are looking into it with this car.. Who knows
Where can i find the word raised chassis in here?

I can see the word stepped nose which would lead me to believe both you and Hamilton are indeed talking about the raised nose first and foremost then of course the raised chassis is a given if you decide to build a car with that philosophy.

So again... when you say "who knows" i say we all know because of the raised nose and the test-plates they ran in practice.[/quote]

Yes, the list is long and distinguished but considering the minor tweaks they've made so far I was hoping and half expecting them to throw the kitchen sink at the mid season upgrades.
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Matt Somers
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Re: Vodafone McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes

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As no-one seems to have mentioned it yet, perhaps it may be wise to return to a snowplough design under the nose? The turning vanes that are currently being used are very minimalistic compared to the additional amount of airflow being created by the higher nose?..? Afterall the team kind of admitted losing the snowplough was in order to trim front end drag/downforce to counter the loss of rear downforce from losing EBD.

The struggles that McLaren seem to have faced since China (Floor rule clarifcation) & Mugello (High Nose) is a lack of tyre warming at the front of the car, the higher nose was obviously introduced in order to drive more air under the nose to counter the loss ratio from the floor being altered. The problem seems to me a see-saw effect though as they have now had to stiffen the front suspension in order to keep within the desired operating window and soften the rear. With the tyres being such a key issue this year and having a compromised front end they can't cycle the tyres effectively. Lewis' more aggressive driving style means he gets more heat in the initial cycle and so isn't so badly compromised.
Williams & Ferrari have obviously realised that front tyre warming is an issue and so designed the scoopless brake ducts in order to keep the temperatures within the assembly more effectively. Yes McLaren have now got the adjustable front brake ducts but obviously didn't run them during qualifying in Silverstone due to little test time. Once again though it's a case of doing more for very little reward, when they finally get them working they will probably be great but wouldn't it have been simpler a few races ago to bring a scoopless brake housing and delay the adjustable ones?
Jenson going out with taped up scoops for his Q1 run just goes to prove how cycling the front tyres is important, he was around 1.6 secs up in the first 2 sectors before abandoning his lap due to the yellows and commented how much better that set of tyres were

Image

I hate to say it but it would seem that McLaren have simply been out developed, being part of FOTA's RRA could be partly to blame here with the 2 teams that seemingly have progressed the most since the start of the season having withdrawn from the organisation at the start of the year. I hope for McLaren's fans that the latest raft of upgrades work as well as they hope but I'm sure we will have a better indication when they complete the test next week.
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Re: Vodafone McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes

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Matt Somers wrote:I hate to say it but it would seem that McLaren have simply been out developed, being part of FOTA's RRA could be partly to blame here
They're still under the RRA. The RRA is binding outside of FOTA. You don't have to be a FOTA member to be under RRA.
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Matt Somers
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Re: Vodafone McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes

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raymondu999 wrote:
Matt Somers wrote:I hate to say it but it would seem that McLaren have simply been out developed, being part of FOTA's RRA could be partly to blame here
They're still under the RRA. The RRA is binding outside of FOTA. You don't have to be a FOTA member to be under RRA.
Yes I know that, but as we all know without being part of a regulation it isn't enforced and more importantly they don't have to be honest about it.....
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Coefficient
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Re: Vodafone McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes

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Matt Somers wrote:
raymondu999 wrote:
Matt Somers wrote:I hate to say it but it would seem that McLaren have simply been out developed, being part of FOTA's RRA could be partly to blame here
They're still under the RRA. The RRA is binding outside of FOTA. You don't have to be a FOTA member to be under RRA.
Yes I know that, but as we all know without being part of a regulation it isn't enforced and more importantly they don't have to be honest about it.....

Yep, Red Bull and others have been overspending since the RRA was first laughably dreamt up.
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Huntresa
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Re: Vodafone McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes

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Matt Somers wrote:
raymondu999 wrote:
Matt Somers wrote:I hate to say it but it would seem that McLaren have simply been out developed, being part of FOTA's RRA could be partly to blame here
They're still under the RRA. The RRA is binding outside of FOTA. You don't have to be a FOTA member to be under RRA.
Yes I know that, but as we all know without being part of a regulation it isn't enforced and more importantly they don't have to be honest about it.....

You also assuming that Mclaren isnt overspending, which is laughable, if you can you will ofc overspend, atm there is no one actually checking and teams arent even allowing ppl to check, so RRA is just bullshit, teams that can will overspend to win.

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adrianjordan
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Re: Vodafone McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes

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Matt Somers wrote:As no-one seems to have mentioned it yet, perhaps it may be wise to return to a snowplough design under the nose? The turning vanes that are currently being used are very minimalistic compared to the additional amount of airflow being created by the higher nose?..? Afterall the team kind of admitted losing the snowplough was in order to trim front end drag/downforce to counter the loss of rear downforce from losing EBD.

With the tyres being such a key issue this year and having a compromised front end they can't cycle the tyres effectively. Lewis' more aggressive driving style means he gets more heat in the initial cycle and so isn't so badly compromised.
Williams & Ferrari have obviously realised that front tyre warming is an issue and so designed the scoopless brake ducts in order to keep the temperatures within the assembly more effectively. Yes McLaren have now got the adjustable front brake ducts but obviously didn't run them during qualifying in Silverstone due to little test time. Once again though it's a case of doing more for very little reward, when they finally get them working they will probably be great but wouldn't it have been simpler a few races ago to bring a scoopless brake housing and delay the adjustable ones?
Jenson going out with taped up scoops for his Q1 run just goes to prove how cycling the front tyres is important, he was around 1.6 secs up in the first 2 sectors before abandoning his lap due to the yellows and commented how much better that set of tyres were


I hate to say it but it would seem that McLaren have simply been out developed, being part of FOTA's RRA could be partly to blame here with the 2 teams that seemingly have progressed the most since the start of the season having withdrawn from the organisation at the start of the year. I hope for McLaren's fans that the latest raft of upgrades work as well as they hope but I'm sure we will have a better indication when they complete the test next week.
I sort of agree with this.

At least my why not take the car back to a Melbourne-spec front end and see how Button manages with that. The way tyres are so fundamental this year I almost think that they could gain more time by giving JB back the confidence to push and allowing him to work the tyres just right, than they could by any other upgrade they might try...of course that doesn't help Lewis as much...or maybe it would...I think that unless their next upgrade package really works for them and if they want to win either championship then they need to through caution to the wall and try something drastic, after all what do they have to lose? They're 4th in the WCC at the moment!!
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Vodafone McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes

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rssh wrote:I am newbie so I may be wrong but I have been following this thread since testing has began . Macca designed the car with a low nose from the start and were confident about it and its development . Since the 09 regs many teams had started to experiment the high nose design and there was a more prominent development of the underbody aero package with all cars . The MP4-25 was a relatively high nose design of Macca since the 09 regs but it was a disaster with they tried to fit the blown diffuser .

The Mp4-26 was designed with the octopus exhaust in mind so they had the rear downforce sorted out even with the lower nose height (lower air volume to underbody compared to other teams) The L shaped side pods also helped Macca maximise the then redbull copied exhaust philosophy . Now in MP4-27 the nose is more lowered and without the rear blowing the air volume to the underside is furthur compromised . But with the lowered nose of MP4-27 Macca has the perfect front and rear balance but lesser overall downforce comparatively . Realizing the mistake Macca has made the nose higher thus more air volume is sent to the underbody to compensate for the clarification of the floor after China .

Now with higher nose the rear downforce is almost at the same level with the bent floor (before clarification) ,but now the front end seems to be compromised and there is a loss in downforce to counter this Macca may have stiffened the already stiff front end (for better times in low speed corner) but the rear had to be softened to get better traction . This lead to understeer in entry (due to lower front downforce) and oversteer on exists after the car is unsettled in the mid corner bumps (too stiff front end) hence the overall balance is gone for a toss and so is driver confidence (Button) hence Macca is playing with setup after Spain and even the little updates are useless due to poor driver confidence .

Other think to worry about the Merc engine needs more cooling than others and the engine itself is relatively bigger so less packaging for other components .

Don't get me wrong but from the visual point of view the rear end of Macca looks like a pig i.e. the engine cover is bigger than other front runner team and the higher nose to underbody transition looks awkward (the place were the ice cutter sits). #-o

PS- I may be severly flawed in my analysis but I though why not give is a try :D

I disagree with this. This year front downforce is not the problem. You see those wings? Most front wings this year are based on 2011 wings. 2011 wings produce enough downforce to balance a 2011 blown rear diffuser. 2012 wings are actually more than capable of making any required front downforce. You don't need a sloping nose, you don't need a snow plow and certainly for teams like Mercedes, you don't need cascades! check their Silverstone front wing it is very interesting. Basically, front downforce is not a problem this year.

Most of the updates were have seen this year on the car, especially on the front wings, are aimed at conditioning air to the REAR of the car. Again, see the slim brake ducts (Williams), Cascade removal (MErc), Split guide vanes, reworked front wing fences, Snow plow removal, Side strakes under the mirrors. etc. The evidence is strong that the real issue this year is getting downforce to the rear of the car.

And even still, it was already said that the low chassis of the mclaren makes not much of a difference in front downforce, but rear downforce? Just ask Jenson Button if he has enough. 8)

Mclaren may need the higher chassis more than ever now, because they need every advantage they can get to win this Championship.
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Re: Vodafone McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes

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paddy lowe just confirmed they have struggled to nail the setup recently.
Sometimes you arrive at the track and all your wonderful work at home does not turn into results...More so..a weekend with lots of rain and a dry race shows how good your sims are in reality....for Mclaren it reads:bad prediction and no chance for the engineers to craft a modified setup onto it due to lack of dry running ....or something along these lines.
No seriously :Mclaren was committed to a flat out rain programme ,not even the intermediates did work ...so no wonder both drivers were lost as sundays race was bone dry.
Wonder why you elect to run such a heavily compromised setup instead biting the bullet relegating the cars to the pitlane and start on a bonafide dry setup.Silverstone is a place with plenty of overtaking possibilities .it could not have been worse from a results standpoint but much more positive for the drivers team and fans to have a fightback ...instead of this pathetic fall from grace..

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RicME85
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Re: Vodafone McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes

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Was talking about that just before the race, would have been interesting to see what a car that had been set up for a dry perfectly for a dry race could of done.

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Re: Vodafone McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes

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Recent off topic posts were moved to a thread in the Off Topic section because they were off topic. :)
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Re: Vodafone McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes

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I think it could be what Hill was touching on. Mind you he said it as a joke but still got me thinking.

He said, "perhaps the other teams have figured out something about the tires which Mclaren haven´t."

we have seen how tires can make you go from mid-field to being the fastest car on track, if you manage to get the tires to work optimally.
There´s nothing that says that you can´t also go from fastest car on track to mid-field in the blink of an eye this season.
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Re: Vodafone McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes

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marcush. wrote:paddy lowe just confirmed they have struggled to nail the setup recently.
Sometimes you arrive at the track and all your wonderful work at home does not turn into results...More so..a weekend with lots of rain and a dry race shows how good your sims are in reality....for Mclaren it reads:bad prediction and no chance for the engineers to craft a modified setup onto it due to lack of dry running ....or something along these lines.
No seriously :Mclaren was committed to a flat out rain programme ,not even the intermediates did work ...so no wonder both drivers were lost as sundays race was bone dry.
Wonder why you elect to run such a heavily compromised setup instead biting the bullet relegating the cars to the pitlane and start on a bonafide dry setup.Silverstone is a place with plenty of overtaking possibilities .it could not have been worse from a results standpoint but much more positive for the drivers team and fans to have a fightback ...instead of this pathetic fall from grace..
Don't we hear more anymore that the difference between a dry and wet set up is minimal? Ie. most teams run maximum rear downforce because of DRS now? Saying that it could lead us onto this:

Nando wrote:I think it could be what Hill was touching on. Mind you he said it as a joke but still got me thinking.

He said, "perhaps the other teams have figured out something about the tires which Mclaren haven´t."

we have seen how tires can make you go from mid-field to being the fastest car on track, if you manage to get the tires to work optimally.
There´s nothing that says that you can´t also go from fastest car on track to mid-field in the blink of an eye this season.
Maybe running a slightly compromised suspension setup for the rain, mclaren were far from optimal for working the tyres in the dry? Also, is there any difference in the suspension setups between wet and dry?

What does it matter? It's Formula Pirelli anyway....
Just a fan's point of view

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Re: Vodafone McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes

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a full rain setup would not only err on the side with more wing inclination (lower speeds ,less grip).You would step back from excessive dry static cambers simply because of less cornering force equal to less dynamic camber..on very heavy rain you´s consider increasing ride heights etc etc etc less grip available = lower forces can be transmitted ,so you will go for softer more longitudinal traction orientated setups ..these measures will inevitably eat your tyres when the race is dry it may or may not compromise your one lap performance on new tyres much.

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Re: Vodafone McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes

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Owen.C93 wrote:Apparently they're aero testing at in Spain this weekend. We might get a look at the new package earlier than expected at least.
Anyone heard any more on this or manged to get any photos?
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