Mercedes AMG F1 W04

[turbof1]

I wonder if we had this talk if they didn't underfuel at malaysia.

[kooleracer]

I wonder if we had this talk if they didn't underfuel at malaysia.

Not only based on Malaysia, But being quick in Monaco could also explain extra fuel and being slow in SPA. But thats why i called it a theory not a hard fact. I don´t say its true, but i can be. But whatever its better to have something to talk about till next GP

And btw Q3 the track temp was 42 Celsius and on Sunday it was 42 celsius. So Merc was quickest when it was the hottest in Q3. So explain that me please. Same temp but quickest if Q3, if the car doesn´t like the heat how can it be fastest in the heat?

BTW: Ross Brawn say the struggle in hot weather, and lewis saying when it was cooler the where faster. ( Could be less fuel in the later part of the race). Maybe to Hot weather aggravates the possible high fuel problem. Does any one know, does heat wear out these Pirelli tyres more?

FYI:Last year the track temp was 27 during the race and even then Rosberg lost 2.3sec the first 2 laps and 1-1.3 secs a lap during stint a lap compared to Vettel.

[danielk]

I wonder if we had this talk if they didn't under-fuel at malaysia.

I think there would be. Its clear they are fast in quali slow at beginning of race. Slow of the line even. But then get faster later in the race.

All of that makes one automatically assume they may be running heavier at the beginning of the race than others for one reason or another.

Slow of the line cannot be explained by the overheating tires, yes they clearly overheat eventually but surely they cannot be overheating them that fast! The first laps the merc is clearly very sluggish compared to others

[beelsebob]

Possible, but again, I Occam's razor seems to suggest the likely explanation is simpler than needing multiple effects to explain this.

It is definitely NOT a simple thing involving "one effect", real systems do not work like that. Everything is convoluted and reliant on everything else, if it wasn't F1 teams wouldn't need very clever people working for them

I'm not saying that my explanation is correct, just giving more likely alternatives to what some parts of the problem might be. I'm also trying to make people understand that while creating these "theories" is fun there are so many factors involved that we have no understanding of that more than out weigh any possible correlation they might think they have found in the lap times.

Sure, I'm not trying to assert that the theory about fuel is correct, nor am I trying to assert that your theory is incorrect, nor am I trying to assert that it's not some combination of all of the above. I'm trying to assert that your theory does not explain all of the behaviour being discussed, while the fuel weight one does.

[mclaren_mircea]

I couldn't see my eyes when I saw that W04 was slower than Mp4-28 :O
I may be wrong but even when Hamilton was at his best, it looked like Perez was slighlty faster, and is the race would have last for another 2 laps, Hamilton's W04 would have finished 6th.

[muhammadtalha-13]

I wonder if we had this talk if they didn't underfuel at malaysia.

Not only based on Malaysia, But being quick in Monaco could also explain extra fuel and being slow in SPA. But thats why i called it a theory not a hard fact. I don´t say its true, but i can be. But whatever its better to have something to talk about till next GP

And btw Q3 the track temp was 42 Celsius and on Sunday it was 42 celsius. So Merc was quickest when it was the hottest in Q3. So explain that me please. Same temp but quickest if Q3, if the car doesn´t like the heat how can it be fastest in the heat?

BTW: Ross Brawn say the struggle in hot weather, and lewis saying when it was cooler the where faster. ( Could be less fuel in the later part of the race). Maybe to Hot weather aggravates the possible high fuel problem. Does any one know, does heat wear out these Pirelli tyres more?

FYI:Last year the track temp was 27 during the race and even then Rosberg lost 2.3sec the first 2 laps and 1-1.3 secs a lap during stint a lap compared to Vettel.

Maybe the team don't want everyone else to know the REAL problem and they are blaming the Tempratures to hide it???

[turbof1]

I wonder if we had this talk if they didn't underfuel at malaysia.

Not only based on Malaysia, But being quick in Monaco could also explain extra fuel and being slow in SPA. But thats why i called it a theory not a hard fact. I don´t say its true, but i can be. But whatever its better to have something to talk about till next GP

And btw Q3 the track temp was 42 Celsius and on Sunday it was 42 celsius. So Merc was quickest when it was the hottest in Q3. So explain that me please. Same temp but quickest if Q3, if the car doesn´t like the heat how can it be fastest in the heat?

BTW: Ross Brawn say the struggle in hot weather, and lewis saying when it was cooler the where faster. ( Could be less fuel in the later part of the race). Maybe to Hot weather aggravates the possible high fuel problem. Does any one know, does heat wear out these Pirelli tyres more?

FYI:Last year the track temp was 27 during the race and even then Rosberg lost 2.3sec the first 2 laps and 1-1.3 secs a lap during stint a lap compared to Vettel.

But at Singapore they weren't quick, a very comparable circuit to monaco concerning fuel. Granted, they were quite underdeveloped by that time. But then again: Monaco could be won by anyone if they qualify high enough. If we putted Rosberg with the exact same issues he had at Bahrain, on Monaco, nobody would have passed him during the first stint.

And Mercedes had quite a good race at Spa with Schumacher! Infact he was one of the quickest during the first stint. If anything, Spa contradicts your argument all together.

(btw, just to be clear: the reason why I am constantly argueing is because I like this discussion too.)

[kooleracer]

I wonder if we had this talk if they didn't underfuel at malaysia.

Not only based on Malaysia, But being quick in Monaco could also explain extra fuel and being slow in SPA. But thats why i called it a theory not a hard fact. I don´t say its true, but i can be. But whatever its better to have something to talk about till next GP

And btw Q3 the track temp was 42 Celsius and on Sunday it was 42 celsius. So Merc was quickest when it was the hottest in Q3. So explain that me please. Same temp but quickest if Q3, if the car doesn´t like the heat how can it be fastest in the heat?

BTW: Ross Brawn say the struggle in hot weather, and lewis saying when it was cooler the where faster. ( Could be less fuel in the later part of the race). Maybe to Hot weather aggravates the possible high fuel problem. Does any one know, does heat wear out these Pirelli tyres more?

FYI:Last year the track temp was 27 during the race and even then Rosberg lost 2.3sec the first 2 laps and 1-1.3 secs a lap during stint a lap compared to Vettel.

But at Singapore they weren't quick, a very comparable circuit to monaco concerning fuel. Granted, they were quite underdeveloped by that time. But then again: Monaco could be won by anyone if they qualify high enough. If we putted Rosberg with the exact same issues he had at Bahrain, on Monaco, nobody would have passed him during the first stint.

And Mercedes had quite a good race at Spa with Schumacher! Infact he was one of the quickest during the first stint. If anything, Spa contradicts your argument all together.

(btw, just to be clear: the reason why I am constantly argueing is because I like this discussion too.)

This totally proves my point. Merc introduced the coanda exhaust in Singapore. In Spa 2012 they were running 'normal' exhaust solution. http://www.formula1.com/news/technical/ ... /1006.html

Also Schumacher did run the coanda in Austin GP and Nico didnt. Nico was quicker throughout the 90% of the race and needed 1 pitstop less then MSC. So the problem has to do with the exhaust solution or fuel because the coanda solution needs more fuel.

Haug said the exhaust plumes overheated the rear tyres. You would think that they corrected it for 2013 car. Ross said during testing the data they got from track correlated with the numbers from the factory. So i think we can exclude the exhaust plume story. Also the haven't updated that area with gives me the idea that problem isn't the exhaust plume.

(Like to have a discussion there is no wrong or right in this one, because we both are just speculation as we don't have inside info about the situation.)

[FoxHound]

I think we will see this problem throughout the season for Mercedes.
I doubt we will see the Engine division split resources between now and the biggest engine rule change in 20 odd years.
The carryover between the current engines will be next to non existent.

[BlackMercedes]

Think it is becoming more and more clear in my mind that the balance of the car especially at the rear is wrong.

I dont think its one problem think its a combination of 2-3 issues they have.

I do think the conada effect works well for them strong downforce but higher fuel consumption? No engine maps to compensate.

RB already alluded to where Mercedes would be in regards to the championship after 4 races.

They know what the problems are and have clever people working on it.

imo if they were struggling i think you would see half way through the season switching attention to 2014

[Shakeman]

Think it is becoming more and more clear in my mind that the balance of the car especially at the rear is wrong.

I dont think its one problem think its a combination of 2-3 issues they have.

I do think the conada effect works well for them strong downforce but higher fuel consumption? No engine maps to compensate.

RB already alluded to where Mercedes would be in regards to the championship after 4 races.

They know what the problems are and have clever people working on it.

imo if they were struggling i think you would see half way through the season switching attention to 2014

This year was going to be a holding year and their pace has been better than expected. The fuel consumption issue that others have written up in detail seems the most likely answer and there seems little they can do about it other than fuel themselves light and hope for a break. The car obviously has pace but the refinement necessary for the race is not there.

I'm pretty sure they're all in on 2014 already and any developments they do this year will be with 2014 in mind.

[dans79]

This year was going to be a holding year and their pace has been better than expected. The fuel consumption issue that others have written up in detail seems the most likely answer and there seems little they can do about it other than fuel themselves light and hope for a break. The car obviously has pace but the refinement necessary for the race is not there.

I think this is an issue all The Merc powered cars have to some extent. Austin last year comes to mind, Vettel streaked away but as the race wore on Lewis ran him down.

I think this year Merc's poor fuel economy is exasperated by the fragile nature of the tires. You can't push them or you will destroy them. The only way to look after your tires, is get into clean air and not race. The best place to do this P1, but it's hard to stay in P1 if your slow because your carrying extra fuel. Other than Malaysia the races have been won by a driver who spent most of the race cruising in clean air.

[Anon123]

I'm pretty sure they're all in on 2014 already and any developments they do this year will be with 2014 in mind.

Totally agree, it's not like they are designing a motorbike next year and pretty much everything on the W04 will be worthless. I think some teams will be quite happy to lose a tenth or two if it means they will finish the year with a car which has parts that can go straight onto the 2014 car, I can't imagine 2015 regs being that different to the 2014 regs so compromising 2013 a bit could be very beneficial for a team in the long run.

[FoxHound]

But you have to remember packaging of the turbo, and a completely new engine.
It will have differing mass characteristics, as well as different cooling requirements. Not to mention different horsepower/torque characteristics.

All this will require a different shape to what we currently see. It may not be vastly different, but it will change.

The carry over W04 parts will be forward of the driver as well as the improved frics suspension IMO. The rest will need to be new.

[outer_bongolia]

This year was going to be a holding year and their pace has been better than expected. The fuel consumption issue that others have written up in detail seems the most likely answer and there seems little they can do about it other than fuel themselves light and hope for a break. The car obviously has pace but the refinement necessary for the race is not there.

I'm pretty sure they're all in on 2014 already and any developments they do this year will be with 2014 in mind.

I missed a few pages of discussion, but there was a detailed analysis of fuel consumption of different engines versus acceleration, etc. And they showed that the Renault engines were the most frugal, while Merc and Ferrari were comparable. Merc had better torque and Merc teams had overall better speeds compared to Renault teams. I found this thread:
http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... es+renault