2015 engine development potential

[Juzh]

I too agree that Mercedes should enjoy their advantage. RedBull were enjoying theirs for 4 years.

enjoyed unfreezed advantage where everyone smart enough could catch up.

[Juzh]

from f1fanatic:

The Technical Regulations (appendix 4) talks about (modifiable) ‘items’ (not tokens). The table only defines that the ‘quota of total weighted items allowed for modifications’ is 32 for 2015.
It does not define how often these can be changed within 2015.

Further the Sporting Regulations defines:

Code: Select all

article 28.5:
Only power units which have been homologated by the FIA in accordance with Appendix 4
may be used at an Event during the 2014-2020 Championship seasons.

appendix 4 – 1 a)
A power unit delivered to the FIA after 28 February 2014 which has been modified in
accordance with the Annual F1 Power Unit Homologation table in Appendix 4 to the F1
Technical Regulations.

appendix 4 – 2
A manufacturer may homologate no more than one specification of power unit.

Thus it does define a limit of 1 homologation per year. As long as the PU is homologated and at any time there is only 1 homologated PU (the last one).
It does mean though that all (customer) teams have to use the same (homologated) unit.

In principle a manufacturer can provide a new homologated PU for every race. But that would mean engine penalties galore and huge coordination issues.

And 32 items can be changed within 2015; it does not define how often they are changed, as long as the new PU is homologated.

Imo everyone will jump on this, including mercedes. Potential advantages coming from this loophole are too big to neglect. Unless honda can muster up something special right from the start things could get shaky after merc/renault/ferrari turn up with their 4 or 5th revision of 2015 PU.

[Nickel]

In principle a manufacturer can provide a new homologated PU for every race. But that would mean engine penalties galore and huge coordination issues.

And 32 items can be changed within 2015; it does not define how often they are changed, as long as the new PU is homologated.

Imo everyone will jump on this, including mercedes. Potential advantages coming from this loophole are too big to neglect. Unless honda can muster up something special right from the start things could get shaky after merc/renault/ferrari turn up with their 4 or 5th revision of 2015 PU.

IMO it does in fact stipulate against this in the regulations:

appendix 4
1. b) A power unit delivered to the FIA after 28 February 2014 which has been modified in
accordance with the Annual F1 Power Unit Homologation table in Appendix 4 to the F1
Technical Regulations.
Once homologated in accordance with a) or b) above, and except as permitted by (c)
below, no changes may be made to the design or construction of the homologated
parts for the duration of the homologation period laid out in Article 28.5 of the F1
Sporting Regulations.

and

28.5 Only power units which have been homologated by the FIA in accordance with Appendix 4
may be used at an Event during the 2014-2020 Championship seasons.

Thus the first paragraph of appendix 4 1.b) stipulates "A" homologated Power Unit, "A" as in "one". The second paragraph stipulated that it must conform to the duration set out in 28.5 which stipulates seasons. So until the FIA changes it's mind again, the rules seem to indicate that although you may homologate at any time during 2015, until you do, you must use the previous homologation (2014) and once you homologate a new one, that's it until 2016.

IMO this is not the total game changer it appeared at first blush.

[dans79]

I too agree that Mercedes should enjoy their advantage. RedBull were enjoying theirs for 4 years.

enjoyed unfreezed advantage where everyone smart enough could catch up.

Do you have a short memory, because last time I checked, after 2009, early 2010, no one was able to change engine components unless it was for reliability reasons. Even then, any potential changes had to be approved to make sure no one was sneaking performance gains in.

Most people know that Renault had an advantage starting in 2010, because their engine was the most fuel efficient and most tuneable. Both of these factors played into their hands when the teams learned about blowing the diffusers.

So Renault had a frozen in advantage, because the other engine manufactures couldn't change their engines enough to catch up.

[skt36]

Thus the first paragraph of appendix 4 1.b) stipulates "A" homologated Power Unit, "A" as in "one". The second paragraph stipulated that it must conform to the duration set out in 28.5 which stipulates seasons. So until the FIA changes it's mind again, the rules seem to indicate that although you may homologate at any time during 2015, until you do, you must use the previous homologation (2014) and once you homologate a new one, that's it until 2016.

1.b is explaining what is meant by a homologated power unit so it makes sense to say that "a" homologated power unit is a power unit that fulfills one of the following conditions.

The only period mentioned in 28.5 is 2014-2020 meaning that once a power unit is homologated under 1.b it cannot be changed at any point from 2014-2020.

You could however homologate a new power unit. The previous power unit is unchanged but no longer the single homologated specification.

[Juzh]

I too agree that Mercedes should enjoy their advantage. RedBull were enjoying theirs for 4 years.

enjoyed unfreezed advantage where everyone smart enough could catch up.

Do you have a short memory, because last time I checked, after 2009, early 2010, no one was able to change engine components unless it was for reliability reasons. Even then, any potential changes had to be approved to make sure no one was sneaking performance gains in.

Most people know that Renault had an advantage starting in 2010, because their engine was the most fuel efficient and most tuneable. Both of these factors played into their hands when the teams learned about blowing the diffusers.

So Renault had a frozen in advantage, because the other engine manufactures couldn't change their engines enough to catch up.

Short memory? 2009? Changes not allowed except for reliability? Surely you remember ferrari gaining 12hp in 2010 after an upgrade to pneumatic valves? That slipped under your radar somehow? Engine freeze kicked in starting 2007. But yeah, renault V8 was so good red bull even tried a switch to mercedes for 2010 but got blocked by mclaren and to an extent brawn, who both knew red bull without an underpowered engine would be even more unstoppable than it was.

[wuzak]

Short memory? 2009? Changes not allowed except for reliability? Surely you remember ferrari gaining 12hp in 2010 after an upgrade to pneumatic valves? That slipped under your radar somehow? Engine freeze kicked in starting 2007. But yeah, renault V8 was so good red bull even tried a switch to mercedes for 2010 but got blocked by mclaren and to an extent brawn, who both knew red bull without an underpowered engine would be even more unstoppable than it was.

Don't just single Ferrari.

Renault were well down on power to Ferrari and Mercedes. They got "reliability" upgrades to close the gap.

[Juzh]

Short memory? 2009? Changes not allowed except for reliability? Surely you remember ferrari gaining 12hp in 2010 after an upgrade to pneumatic valves? That slipped under your radar somehow? Engine freeze kicked in starting 2007. But yeah, renault V8 was so good red bull even tried a switch to mercedes for 2010 but got blocked by mclaren and to an extent brawn, who both knew red bull without an underpowered engine would be even more unstoppable than it was.

Don't just single Ferrari.

Renault were well down on power to Ferrari and Mercedes. They got "reliability" upgrades to close the gap.

I'm just trying to illustrate a point.

That major renault upgrade was a one off though, going into 2009 season. They improved but still remained the weakest engine by some margin. After that upgrade, the fia said the only way to have more equalization is to have other engine suppliers detune their own engines.
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2010/01/15/n ... edes-deal/

[dans79]

I'm just trying to illustrate a point.

That major renault upgrade was a one off though, going into 2009 season. They improved but still remained the weakest engine by some margin. After that upgrade, the fia said the only way to have more equalization is to have other engine suppliers detune their own engines.
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2010/01/15/n ... edes-deal/

regardless, my point is still valid, The Renault fuel efficiency, and tuneability was locked in, and gave the a big edge over the competition when blowing came into use.

[Juzh]

Rb7 was the only car to enjoy unrestricted EBD, after that 1 million rules trying to ban it came into effect. 1 of them even mid season.
You talk about fuel efficiency as it's the only thing that mattered. Renault also had their weak power frozen in. You get it?

[FoxHound]

Rb7 was the only car to enjoy unrestricted EBD, after that 1 million rules trying to ban it came into effect. 1 of them even mid season.
You talk about fuel efficiency as it's the only thing that mattered. Renault also had their weak power frozen in. You get it?

Do you know the torque figures for Renault's V8 in relation to Ferrari and Mercedes units?
As it stands we know Renault used a fair bit less fuel than Mercedes and Ferrari.
If all engines are capped at 18k, and one is using less fuel but has marginally less top end bhp, could we assume it has a higher bottom end torque figure or a wider power band?

You are foregoing alot of factors here.

[Cold Fussion]

If all engines are capped at 18k, and one is using less fuel but has marginally less top end bhp, could we assume it has a higher bottom end torque figure or a wider power band?

You are foregoing alot of factors here.

What justification do you have for this?

[wuzak]

Rb7 was the only car to enjoy unrestricted EBD, after that 1 million rules trying to ban it came into effect. 1 of them even mid season.
You talk about fuel efficiency as it's the only thing that mattered. Renault also had their weak power frozen in. You get it?

The "rule change" introduced in mid season was merely to point out that the throttles should act in accordance with driver's right foot. Which EBD clearly didn't. That didn't go very far because Renault whinged about needing to that to cool the exhaust valve or some other BS.

[Juzh]

Do you know the torque figures for Renault's V8 in relation to Ferrari and Mercedes units?

No, I also don't know precise figures for merc V6 but can say with utmost certainty it's by far the most powerful of the 3.

As it stands we know Renault used a fair bit less fuel than Mercedes and Ferrari.

So, you are sure of this, but not of the fact is was also the weakest? What makes you believe one and not another?

If all engines are capped at 18k, and one is using less fuel but has marginally less top end bhp, could we assume it has a higher bottom end torque figure or a wider power band?

Renault and torque/wide power range in 1 sentence Short gears much? Probably there for the lolz. You think RB wanted to run those close ratios if they didn't absolutely need to? Newey said tons of times how renault is a peaky engine.

You are foregoing alot of factors here.

Not really, no.

Either way, you're the guy who actually hinted on merc V6t not being the best in just about every aspect.
#done

[diffuser]

Rb7 was the only car to enjoy unrestricted EBD, after that 1 million rules trying to ban it came into effect. 1 of them even mid season.
You talk about fuel efficiency as it's the only thing that mattered. Renault also had their weak power frozen in. You get it?

Do you know the torque figures for Renault's V8 in relation to Ferrari and Mercedes units?
As it stands we know Renault used a fair bit less fuel than Mercedes and Ferrari.
If all engines are capped at 18k, and one is using less fuel but has marginally less top end bhp, could we assume it has a higher bottom end torque figure or a wider power band?

You are foregoing alot of factors here.

Everything here falls under "hear say". In 2014, with the fuel flow sensor, we could actually tell which engine was more fuel efficient... I don't see how anyone could realistically say (pre 2014) that Renault's engine was more fuel efficient when nobody but the teams themselves knew how much fuel they were running. Not to mention that all 3 teams are known for posturing.