Mclaren MP4-30 Honda

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Fer.Fan
Fer.Fan
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Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2015 8:31 pm

Re: Mclaren MP4-30 Honda

Post

nevill3 wrote:Ted Kravitz on Sky F1 has said that they need a total redesign of the MGU-H and reposition as stated above because of a serious failure that destroyed one MGU-H. This will not need tokens though because it would be a reliabilty/safety modification

http://www1.skysports.com/formula1/video/

Search for Teds Notebook Malaysia @ 16:50
To rebuild MGU-H will take time and time is something Mclaren-Honda don´t have. I hope they can sort out their car soon. [-o<

GoranF1
GoranF1
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Re: Mclaren MP4-30 Honda

Post

Nicolas Kiesa

"Normal" PU (my current understanding of the layout)
<-front) [ICE]=||=[MGU-K]=[Gearbox]=[Differential] (rear->

Honda PU:
<-front) [ICE]=||=[Gearbox=||=[MGU-K]]=[Differential] (rear->

On the Honda PU, the MGU-K is built into the transmission casing and separated from the transmission with a clutch which has several benefits but also a few drawbacks.

Benefits:
The transmission only needs to be built to transmit the torque the ICE can generate, which means it can be lighter
The MGU-K is connected to the differential and can be decoupled from the ICE, which means that the torque to the wheels can be mapped very precisely (if you ask for 200Nm of torque from an electric motor, you get precisely 200Nm. If you ask for 200Nm of torque from an ICE, you can get 200+/-15Nm -- paraphrasing the example Kiesa used)
The power from the MGU-K is not subjected to the losses in the gearbox, which means that the Honda PU can potentially utilize both ERS-K and ERS-H with higher efficiency due to less energy wasted as friction (and heat) in the transmission
Drawbacks:
The MGU-K gets up to 300 degrees Celsius when recovering and deploying energy. As it runs inside the gearbox, it needs to be sealed against the gearbox to avoid gearbox oil entering the MGU-K and to ensure that whatever cools the MGU-K doesn't leak out into the gearbox (not sure what the latter part is supposed to mean -- maybe there's some liquid cooling inside the MGU-K?)
The seal between the MGU-K and the gearbox is apparently not durable enough to withstand the temperatures seen in real driving conditions, which means that the MGU-K needs to be run in a lower setting to avoid it failing and becoming leaky.
"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication & competence."

f1rules
f1rules
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Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2004 2:34 pm
Location: Denmark

Re: Mclaren MP4-30 Honda

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The info is originally from a poster on autosport who saw kiesas introduction, thanks ERMO very interesting stuff

frosty125
frosty125
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Joined: Thu Feb 20, 2014 6:34 pm

Re: Mclaren MP4-30 Honda

Post

ajnšpric_pumpa wrote:Nicolas Kiesa

"Normal" PU (my current understanding of the layout)
<-front) [ICE]=||=[MGU-K]=[Gearbox]=[Differential] (rear->

Honda PU:
<-front) [ICE]=||=[Gearbox=||=[MGU-K]]=[Differential] (rear->

On the Honda PU, the MGU-K is built into the transmission casing and separated from the transmission with a clutch which has several benefits but also a few drawbacks.

Benefits:
The transmission only needs to be built to transmit the torque the ICE can generate, which means it can be lighter
The MGU-K is connected to the differential and can be decoupled from the ICE, which means that the torque to the wheels can be mapped very precisely (if you ask for 200Nm of torque from an electric motor, you get precisely 200Nm. If you ask for 200Nm of torque from an ICE, you can get 200+/-15Nm -- paraphrasing the example Kiesa used)
The power from the MGU-K is not subjected to the losses in the gearbox, which means that the Honda PU can potentially utilize both ERS-K and ERS-H with higher efficiency due to less energy wasted as friction (and heat) in the transmission
Drawbacks:
The MGU-K gets up to 300 degrees Celsius when recovering and deploying energy. As it runs inside the gearbox, it needs to be sealed against the gearbox to avoid gearbox oil entering the MGU-K and to ensure that whatever cools the MGU-K doesn't leak out into the gearbox (not sure what the latter part is supposed to mean -- maybe there's some liquid cooling inside the MGU-K?)
The seal between the MGU-K and the gearbox is apparently not durable enough to withstand the temperatures seen in real driving conditions, which means that the MGU-K needs to be run in a lower setting to avoid it failing and becoming leaky.
Don't think this could be legal rules stipulate that the MGU-K has to attach to the crank before the main clutch.

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aleks_ader
88
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 7:40 am

Re: Mclaren MP4-30 Honda

Post

frosty125 wrote:
ajnšpric_pumpa wrote:Nicolas Kiesa

"Normal" PU (my current understanding of the layout)
<-front) [ICE]=||=[MGU-K]=[Gearbox]=[Differential] (rear->

Honda PU:
<-front) [ICE]=||=[Gearbox=||=[MGU-K]]=[Differential] (rear->

On the Honda PU, the MGU-K is built into the transmission casing and separated from the transmission with a clutch which has several benefits but also a few drawbacks.

Benefits:
The transmission only needs to be built to transmit the torque the ICE can generate, which means it can be lighter
The MGU-K is connected to the differential and can be decoupled from the ICE, which means that the torque to the wheels can be mapped very precisely (if you ask for 200Nm of torque from an electric motor, you get precisely 200Nm. If you ask for 200Nm of torque from an ICE, you can get 200+/-15Nm -- paraphrasing the example Kiesa used)
The power from the MGU-K is not subjected to the losses in the gearbox, which means that the Honda PU can potentially utilize both ERS-K and ERS-H with higher efficiency due to less energy wasted as friction (and heat) in the transmission
Drawbacks:
The MGU-K gets up to 300 degrees Celsius when recovering and deploying energy. As it runs inside the gearbox, it needs to be sealed against the gearbox to avoid gearbox oil entering the MGU-K and to ensure that whatever cools the MGU-K doesn't leak out into the gearbox (not sure what the latter part is supposed to mean -- maybe there's some liquid cooling inside the MGU-K?)
The seal between the MGU-K and the gearbox is apparently not durable enough to withstand the temperatures seen in real driving conditions, which means that the MGU-K needs to be run in a lower setting to avoid it failing and becoming leaky.
Don't think this could be legal rules stipulate that the MGU-K has to attach to the crank before the main clutch.
Yup "frosty". +1 That is the case there. Constant gear ratio is mandatory.
"And if you no longer go for a gap that exists, you're no longer a racing driver..." Ayrton Senna

langwadt
langwadt
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Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:54 pm

Re: Mclaren MP4-30 Honda

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f1rules wrote:The info is originally from a poster on autosport who saw kiesas introduction, thanks ERMO very interesting stuff
You would think having read the rules was a given when your job is commenting F1, but sometimes it seems like Kiesa haven't

5.2.3 The MGU-K must be solely and permanently mechanically linked to the powertrain before the
main clutch. This mechanical link must be of fixed speed ratio to the engine crankshaft.

JDC123
JDC123
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Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2013 8:02 pm

Re: McLaren adds 2-channel S-duct in car nose

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F1T wrote:McLaren adds 2-channel S-duct in car nose - Development blog

McLaren is pushing on with aerodynamic development while Honda focuses on getting its power unit up to speed. The most notable update seen on the MP4-30 chassis at Malaysia is the addition of an S-duct in the nose cone, undoubtedly pushed by Petr Prodromou who worked on the feature with Red Bull in recent years.

Similar to the inlet on the Red Bull RB11, air is caught via a wide channel underneath the entire span of the nose cone, with the outer extremities however feeding channels to provide cockpit cooling rather than the S-duct. Different however is that on the McLaren, the duct splits in two, provided an exit on each side of the pitot tube hub fixed on the car's centreline atop the monocoque. The split channel was probably necessary due to the location of other components, but it does have a slight disadvantage in that it had an increased internal surface area, negatively influencing airflow through the channel via the boundary layer effect.

http://f1tcdn.net/images/development/20 ... -sduct.jpg
What exactly does an S-duct do? Why would you want to duct air from below the nose onto the top of the chassis when teams want to get as much air under the nose as possible, especially after the rule changes? Considering these cars are rear limited in terms of downforce surely you would want to channel as much air under the floor to the diffuser as possible.

deterherligt
deterherligt
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Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2010 2:20 pm

Re: Mclaren MP4-30 Honda

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langwadt wrote:
f1rules wrote:The info is originally from a poster on autosport who saw kiesas introduction, thanks ERMO very interesting stuff
You would think having read the rules was a given when your job is commenting F1, but sometimes it seems like Kiesa haven't

5.2.3 The MGU-K must be solely and permanently mechanically linked to the powertrain before the
main clutch. This mechanical link must be of fixed speed ratio to the engine crankshaft.
Everyone who have seen Danish formula 1 coverage would know that Kiesa don't know what he is talking about.

langwadt
langwadt
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Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:54 pm

Re: Mclaren MP4-30 Honda

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deterherligt wrote:
langwadt wrote:
f1rules wrote:The info is originally from a poster on autosport who saw kiesas introduction, thanks ERMO very interesting stuff
You would think having read the rules was a given when your job is commenting F1, but sometimes it seems like Kiesa haven't

5.2.3 The MGU-K must be solely and permanently mechanically linked to the powertrain before the
main clutch. This mechanical link must be of fixed speed ratio to the engine crankshaft.
Everyone who have seen Danish formula 1 coverage would know that Kiesa don't know what he is talking about.
well he sorta know a little, and then he just takes off talking nonsense. He's a race driver not an engineer but when he is supposed to be the technical expert the least he could do is read the regulations

JimClarkFan
JimClarkFan
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Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:31 pm

Re: Mclaren MP4-30 Honda

Post

nevill3 wrote:Ted Kravitz on Sky F1 has said that they need a total redesign of the MGU-H and reposition as stated above because of a serious failure that destroyed one MGU-H. This will not need tokens though because it would be a reliabilty/safety modification

http://www1.skysports.com/formula1/video/

Search for Teds Notebook Malaysia @ 16:50
Are you sure it wouldn't need tokens, I have this no tokens for reliability but I have not seen that in the token regulations.

Also in mclarens case reliability will lead directly to a performance increase, so where do you draw the line?

henra
henra
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Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2012 6:34 pm

Re: McLaren adds 2-channel S-duct in car nose

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JDC123 wrote: What exactly does an S-duct do? Why would you want to duct air from below the nose onto the top of the chassis when teams want to get as much air under the nose as possible, especially after the rule changes? Considering these cars are rear limited in terms of downforce surely you would want to channel as much air under the floor to the diffuser as possible.
The idea behind this S-DUct is to extract the boundary layer (that part of the airflow that is slowed down due to the shearforces between stagnant air directly at the surface and the free stream). These boundary layers tend to open up and get more turbulent along a surface over which air flows at speed. This opened up boundary layer acurally narrows the path for the free airflow. So the idea is still to inctrease airflow to the underbody of the car by eliminating/reducing an obstacle to the free air flow.

CjC
CjC
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Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:13 pm

Re: Mclaren MP4-30 Honda

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langwadt wrote:
f1rules wrote:The info is originally from a poster on autosport who saw kiesas introduction, thanks ERMO very interesting stuff
You would think having read the rules was a given when your job is commenting F1, but sometimes it seems like Kiesa haven't

5.2.3 The MGU-K must be solely and permanently mechanically linked to the powertrain before the
main clutch. This mechanical link must be of fixed speed ratio to the engine crankshaft.
Think out of the box here for me a sec...
Could the flywheel and it's bell housing actually be the MGU-k?
The flywheel is the spinning magnet and the bell housing has all the wiring in it as a motor/generator would?

If this is the case it's down to interpretation if the rules. Is the main cluch the other flywheel that interacts with the MGU-k flywheel. Or does the main clutch start as soon as the drivetrain connects to the flywheel?
Just a fan's point of view

langwadt
langwadt
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Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:54 pm

Re: Mclaren MP4-30 Honda

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CjC wrote:
langwadt wrote:
f1rules wrote:The info is originally from a poster on autosport who saw kiesas introduction, thanks ERMO very interesting stuff
You would think having read the rules was a given when your job is commenting F1, but sometimes it seems like Kiesa haven't

5.2.3 The MGU-K must be solely and permanently mechanically linked to the powertrain before the
main clutch. This mechanical link must be of fixed speed ratio to the engine crankshaft.
Think out of the box here for me a sec...
Could the flywheel and it's bell housing actually be the MGU-k?
The flywheel is the spinning magnet and the bell housing has all the wiring in it as a motor/generator would?

If this is the case it's down to interpretation if the rules. Is the main cluch the other flywheel that interacts with the MGU-k flywheel. Or does the main clutch start as soon as the drivetrain connects to the flywheel?
don't think any type of clutch will count as a fixed speed ratio to the crankshaft

Mui
Mui
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Re: Mclaren MP4-30 Honda

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Before the introduction of the 2009 KERS which effectively is MGU-K, wasn't there a mechanical flywheel concept for KERS? Was it Williams that wanted to do it but ultimately went with the more normal one?

3jawchuck
3jawchuck
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Re: Mclaren MP4-30 Honda

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Mui wrote:Before the introduction of the 2009 KERS which effectively is MGU-K, wasn't there a mechanical flywheel concept for KERS? Was it Williams that wanted to do it but ultimately went with the more normal one?
Yeah, it is used in WEC by some teams. I think that Williams or a company they used to own are the ones making them. Don't quote me on that though.