Horsepower of the engines.

[Vortex37]

AVL Horsepower test

Just for fun. We need more power!!!

[PlatinumZealot]

Now that was a nice video!

[Brian Coat]

It's great isn't it?!

Although it's not a first. As Ian King points out in the YouTube comments, he pioneered the technique and Per & Karsten Andersen already ran it on their TF car. They also got 10,000 hp IIRC. Ian's bike was 'only' 1400 hp!

[Vortex37]

Now that was a nice video!

Glad you enjoyed it. Of course you need a 'slightly larger' fuel pump from Waterman. Yes GPM does mean gallons per minute! What was that about fuel flow restriction......

Fuel pump test video

[gruntguru]

I think for this formula, more than turbo charging and the electrical power, the direct injection and fuel pressure technology is the star here. Also the tools used to conduct combustion analysis.

In descending order of importance, the changes that have produced the improved power/efficiency are:
Compared to previous V8 engine.
1. Leaning of AFR from "peak power" to "peak efficiency"
2. Recovery of energy from exhaust.
3. Direct Injection.

Compared to Honda RA168e.
1. Recovery of energy from exhaust.
2. Direct Injection.
3. Leaning of AFR from "0.98" to "peak efficiency"

[pgfpro]

Sorry to say, but turbo charging your insight hybrid won't give you any insight into how the MGUK deliver's power.

So what is different between my battery assist delivering power at the crankshaft when enable verses the MGUK unit enable??? I have made modifications on the Insight where I can turn the battery assist on when I want and turn off when I want plus how much assist needed by a controlled % increase. I can turn on regenerating braking on when I want and off when I want. From several turbo 400HP per liter engines I built I have seen first hand a decrease in BSFC across the board. Now I want to see on my dyno what happens when you add a electric motor assist in to the equation. Will the BSFC of the ICE only, increase or decrease??? If you have done real life testing in the area please let me know!!!!!

Also try not to confuse thermal efficiency with fuel mileage. All the engines in F1 can do the same fuel mileage if they need to. The f1 cars achieve fuel mileage by storing energy when it is not needed and then using it when needed.

I never mention fuel mileage???? I'm measuring engine efficiency through BSFC!!!!!! I'm setting my own max fuel limit. Then controlling the A/F ratio and boost levels to not exceed it.

[gruntguru]

Adding a motor/generator to the crankshaft won't chnge the BSFC of the engine. It will however allow you to operate the engine closer to its best BSFC for more of the time - charge the batteries when engine demand is low - discharge the batteries when engine demand is high.

Because of inefficiencies in the electrical storage and retrieval, it will not always be the choice best to use it. For example if the engine demand is such that BSFC is already within 10% of best BSFC, it would probably be less efficient to invoke the storage/retrieval system.

[pgfpro]

Adding a motor/generator to the crankshaft won't chnge the BSFC of the engine. It will however allow you to roperate the engine closer to its best BSFC for more of the time - charge the batteries when engine demand is low - discharge the batteries when engine demand is high.

Because of inefficiencies in the electrical storage and retrieval, it will not always be the choice best to use it. For example if the engine demand is such that BSFC is already within 10% of best BSFC, it would probably be less efficient to invoke the storage/retrieval system.

gruntguru with a ton of respect have you seen this first hand with real life data? No simulation no calculation no assumption, I'm talking your real engine dyno numbers????

[Brian Coat]

GG is right and a dyno is not needed to prove it.

In the case of F1 and many other engines the dyno IS a motor generator, one which you use to move the PU to different operating points.

So the assertion that a MGU mechanical input can influence the fundamental performance capability of the ICE is like saying that the dyno itself can change the actual capability of the ICE, which we know it can't.

[OO7]

The contributors who suggested 850+ hp power figures in the ' Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula' thread, were called crazy last year. Even when senior team members mention such figures (last years estimates), they are usually conservative. I recall Marmorini of Ferrari last year speaking of 650hp for the ICE and during the Engine Gurus PC, in which Cowell mentioned efficiencies pushing 40% plus and Rob White half laughing saying it was a bit more than that. The clues were there.

Anyway these PU are incredible, fantastically efficient.

Blaze I know you understand that as engineers we cannot just believe rumors without any sort of good reasoning behind them, we have to use the tools and techniques that we know. This why our horsepower numbers were in the 850hp range. With new information from Andy Cowell it is clear that all we have to adjust in our engine calculators is the friction loss and combustion efficiency factors. It appears that our assumptions on these were based on older (outdated?) knowledge in combusiton, tribology and material engineering. Of course Andy Cowell has told us the real number, and we will believe him because he is the most credible source. It doesn't make other members who only follow any rumor they here any better than us, the brave ones who use our engineering skills to take a shot though. In the end it results in a great exchange of knowledge across the site. I have learnt so much new things about engine technology this year alone.

I was just poking some fun PZ, but it does show how remarkable these new PUs are. I wonder if Mercedes were to scratch build a new NA V8 to the 2013 regs, how much power it would produce.

BTW the estimates in the 850hp range were the ones that I thought to be more realistic at the time. It was the ones suggesting ICE outputs in the 550 to 600hp range that I assumed were being far too conservative.

[ringo]

Are there any combustion software out there for the average joe engineer?

[gruntguru]

Adding a motor/generator to the crankshaft won't chnge the BSFC of the engine. It will however allow you to operate the engine closer to its best BSFC for more of the time - charge the batteries when engine demand is low - discharge the batteries when engine demand is high.

Because of inefficiencies in the electrical storage and retrieval, it will not always be the choice best to use it. For example if the engine demand is such that BSFC is already within 10% of best BSFC, it would probably be less efficient to invoke the storage/retrieval system.

gruntguru with a ton of respect have you seen this first hand with real life data? No simulation no calculation no assumption, I'm talking your real engine dyno numbers????

Are you thinking it would be valid to add an electric motor to the crankshaft, measure the total power on a dyno, divide by the fuel flow and call the result a BSFC?

Of course that would not be valid. You don't even need a dyno to do the calculation. If your electric motor has the same output as the ICE, the "BSFC" will be half that of the ICE alone. Five times the output of the ICE and the "BSFC" will be one sixth . . . . and so on.

[pgfpro]

Adding a motor/generator to the crankshaft won't chnge the BSFC of the engine. It will however allow you to operate the engine closer to its best BSFC for more of the time - charge the batteries when engine demand is low - discharge the batteries when engine demand is high.

Because of inefficiencies in the electrical storage and retrieval, it will not always be the choice best to use it. For example if the engine demand is such that BSFC is already within 10% of best BSFC, it would probably be less efficient to invoke the storage/retrieval system.

gruntguru with a ton of respect have you seen this first hand with real life data? No simulation no calculation no assumption, I'm talking your real engine dyno numbers????

Are you thinking it would be valid to add an electric motor to the crankshaft, measure the total power on a dyno, divide by the fuel flow and call the result a BSFC?

Of course that would not be valid. You don't even need a dyno to do the calculation. If your electric motor has the same output as the ICE, the "BSFC" will be half that of the ICE alone. Five times the output of the ICE and the "BSFC" will be one sixth . . . . and so on.

No thats not what I'm saying.

Example:
ICE Only
1.0L
6000rpm
10.3 intake psi.
A/F 14.7
BSFC .45 or 273 g/kWh = total fuel 54.1lbs/hr
120 HP

ICE with 30HP electric motor enable
1.0L
6000rpm
10.3 intake psi
A/F 14.7
BSFC .36 or 218 g/kWh = total fuel 54.1lbs/hr with a 30 HP electric motor added at the crank
150 HP and yes I understand that the ICE only BSFC is still .45 or 273 g/kWh = total fuel 54.1lbs/hr
120 HP but with both power units combine the HP output verses amount of fuel used is now 150 HP and a BSFC of .36 or 218 g/kWh = total fuel 54.1lbs/hr

what I'm saying is the engine output is not a 150 HP with a BSFC .36 or 218 g/kWh = total fuel 54.1lbs/hr at this same load and rpm and A/F but now 169 HP with a new BSFC of .32 or 194 g/kWh = total fuel 54.1 lbs/hr with a 30 HP electric motor added at the crank

where did the extra 19HP come from??? the ice engine or the electric motor??? or the combination???

now the interesting part the same engine at a different rpm, A/F ratio and boost level yields a loss in combine HP and increase in BSFC from the same additional 30 HP electric motor???

[gruntguru]

Makes no sense to me. Are you saying you measured the power at 169 hp? . . and switching off the 30 hp electric motor drops the output to 120 hp?

[Tommy Cookers]

@pgf pro
it's easy for me to type in a few words, so .....

have you measured 150 hp ?
ie are you assuming the EM is giving 30 hp at all rpm or measured EM power as 30 hp at all rpm ?

is this the Honda EM ?
in 2000 that was fwiw rated at 13 hp@1500 rpm (the mean current through the EM will be limited to a desired value to do this)
if you supplied the same mean current at 6000 rpm (4x1500 rpm) that would give nominally 4x13 hp = 52 hp
so in this way that EM could add say 49 hp to the ICE at 6000 rpm (ie giving 169 hp total)