Side Monocoque Wings

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Conceptual
Conceptual
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Joined: 15 Nov 2007, 03:33

Side Monocoque Wings

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From what I have seen of them in pictures as well on television, they look to me as if they actually create LIFT! I have paused my DVR several times to look at this, and posted on the SpeedTV forums what I thought, and was actually banned from their site since a moderator dismissed my claim as idiocy, and I posted a link to an Osterich research website!

My core question is this:

With downforce realistically only necessary directly over the wheels, is it possible to use lifting wings to reduce the weight of the car in a way that would increase the power:weight ratio? I understand Inertia and mass and all of that due to the flames on the SpeedTV board, but I dont understand why "holding" the weight (mass) with wings instead of suspension would NOT have a performance increase. I believe that it is not necessarily the MASS that effects direction change, but the gravitational effect ON said mass that causes the problem. Afterall, it is gravity that holds an object at X,Y,Z coordinates on Earth, the mass is just a number that tells how strongly it is acted upon by said gravity, right?

Any intelligent reply is appreciated. I came to this forum to learn, and to epiphanize from what is shared. Not to get burned by flames of the "1337".

Thanks,

Chris

Giblet
Giblet
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Joined: 19 Mar 2007, 01:47
Location: Canada

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I beleive the amount of lift generated by these wings is little compared to amount of benefit gained in other areas by the way the wings shape the air over the car.

If the wings generated 1 "point" of lift, but got rid of 2 points of drag, and also gave the rear wing 1 more point of downforce, the overall effect of the wing would be beneficial.

Not every part of the car is there solely to add downforce.

Giblet
Giblet
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Joined: 19 Mar 2007, 01:47
Location: Canada

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Oh, and if you did have them there just to produce lift, and you're on the edge of adhesion going around a corner, and a gust of wind adds that little bit of extra lift needed to send you off the track mid corner.

Conceptual
Conceptual
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Joined: 15 Nov 2007, 03:33

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Giblet wrote:Oh, and if you did have them there just to produce lift, and you're on the edge of adhesion going around a corner, and a gust of wind adds that little bit of extra lift needed to send you off the track mid corner.
Ostriches corner pretty decently. :lol:

I'm sure that they shape the air further back, but I doubt that ANY part on a F1 car only has a single purpose. What would happen if at 170MPH (straight line) it created enough lift to suspend the weight of the entire monocoque? You would still have wings generating downforce on the front and rear tires keeping 100% traction (especially with aids).

I just want to know if they could possibly add a benefit by creating lift on the car, like an ostrich! :D

Mikey_s
Mikey_s
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Joined: 21 Dec 2005, 11:06

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Welcome Conceptual... hope you enjoy the site.

I think that your concept is flawed - generating lift does not reduce the actual mass of the vehicle, and therefore it does not reduce inertia, or momentum - therefore it does not increase the ability of the engine to overcome the inertia, or the ability of the brakes to overcome the momentum.

The generation of downforce increases the apparent weight of the vehicle and thus increases the load on the tyres, generating greater grip. It does this at the expense of generating drag, which the engine must overcome - thus the challenge is to generate maximum aero grip whilst minimising drag. Reducing the aero load on the tyres would therefore reduce grip, but would not affect the actual mass of the vehicle and would therefore not affect the power to weight ratio, but would affect the aero grip and drag components.

I am happy to be corrected if anyone disagrees with my analysis of the situation.

P.S. I'm not sure how ostriches do it, but I suspect they use their wings as moveable aerodynamic devies, which are precluded by the F1 regulations :lol:
Mike

MrT
MrT
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Joined: 17 Jan 2006, 11:32

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Mikey_s explained it well.

The whole reason aerodynamic downforce is so good is that it provides an increased load on the contact patches WITHOUT increasing the vehicles mass. This means that, if we forget the affect of drag for a second, the vehicles acceleration would remain unaffected given the same traction force (F=MA).

Now in practice, aero devices also produce drag which will reduce a vehicles acceleration although this downside will be offset over a lap due to the increase in potential cornering, braking and traction. Adding wings to produce lift would only reduce the potential in these areas, not increase the power:weight and therefore not increase the vehicle acceleration.[/quote]

Belatti
Belatti
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Joined: 10 Jul 2007, 21:48
Location: Argentina

Re: Side Monocoque Wings

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Conceptual wrote:...and posted on the SpeedTV forums what I thought, and was actually banned from their site since a moderator dismissed my claim as idiocy, and I posted a link to an Osterich research website!
Chris, welcome to The Forum, you came to the right place! Here any question relating F1 WON´T be treated like idiocy.

Mikey_S and MrT explained right both.

If you want to counter attack "aerodinamically" the inertia forces caused by mass aceleration you should create:
1) drag when braking
2) lateral force (like planes do) when turning
3) and reduce drag when acelerating

See that lift is not includeed in any desired direction change a F1 car can do.

However it would be interesting if you post some screenshots of what you are talking about.
"You need great passion, because everything you do with great pleasure, you do well." -Juan Manuel Fangio

"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication and competence." -Ayrton Senna

DaveKillens
DaveKillens
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Joined: 20 Jan 2005, 04:02

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Welcome to the forum Chris, I hope you enjoy yourself here.

Back around 1968, wings were being applied to Formula One cars. One theory was to have the wings mounted directly on the suspension uprights, thus transferring the downforce generated directly to the tires. But there were some bad accidents, and it was suspected that the wing uprights failed. The regulations were changed so that any wings or such had to be mounted on the chassis, which we see today. Colin Chapman tried to circumvent the rules with a novel "double tub" chassis, but banned almost immediately. Here's an overview of the 1981 Lotus 88.
http://www.f1technical.net/f1db/cars/473

Every wing and appendage adds mass and drag. So if you have one set of wings generating downforce, and another set of wings creating lift, the total drag is cumulative.

Conceptual
Conceptual
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Joined: 15 Nov 2007, 03:33

Re: Side Monocoque Wings

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Belatti wrote:
Conceptual wrote:...and posted on the SpeedTV forums what I thought, and was actually banned from their site since a moderator dismissed my claim as idiocy, and I posted a link to an Osterich research website!
Chris, welcome to The Forum, you came to the right place! Here any question relating F1 WON´T be treated like idiocy.

Mikey_S and MrT explained right both.

If you want to counter attack "aerodinamically" the inertia forces caused by mass aceleration you should create:
1) drag when braking
2) lateral force (like planes do) when turning
3) and reduce drag when acelerating

See that lift is not includeed in any desired direction change a F1 car can do.

However it would be interesting if you post some screenshots of what you are talking about.
Just look at any pictures of the monocoque wings on the Ferrari, McLaren, renault, etc. They appear to be pitched in a way that they would actually create an air cushion, thus my quesion being is there any way that having that cushion can be befeficial? Then my mind cross-referenced the ostrich. They can accelerate quickly and achieve high top speed due to spreading their wings. The air cushion caused by their wings actually suspends the weight of the bird, so as it runs it has longer strides, and the ability to push off with one leg at a time, and run at 60+mph for 20 minutes at a time.

Why does it help an ostrich to do this, and are the monocoque wings doing something similar.

I have some pages bookmarked, I'll go through them and post the relevant ones...

Chris

Belatti
Belatti
33
Joined: 10 Jul 2007, 21:48
Location: Argentina

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Ostrich does this because it doesn´t need vertical downforce to apply traction. Its feet "nails" pushes ground backwards thus the bird moves foward.

Tyres do need vertical force because:
Friction Force (grip) = friction coeficient (depends on materials) * Vertical Downforce (generated by aero and mass)

Please forum aero experts correct me if I´m wrong, but the wings you mention are for keeping the boundary layer at bay before sidepods rather than creating downforce.
"You need great passion, because everything you do with great pleasure, you do well." -Juan Manuel Fangio

"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication and competence." -Ayrton Senna

Carlos
Carlos
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Joined: 02 Sep 2006, 19:43
Location: Canada

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I think the air cushion idea doesn't work for an ostrich either because it is a flightless bird that uses it's legs to run and it's wings to balance, the running speed of the ostrich is too slow in relation to the wings height above the ground to generate lift. The ostrich just has very strong leg muscles so it can run very fast. Puttig an ostrich on a treadmill in a wind tunnel would be interesting way to confirm my opinion, by putting sensors on the soles of the ostriches feet, we could gauge exactly at what speed it left the ground, we would have to add the treadmill speed together with the airspeed of the wind tunnel flow. I did find a definitive study of ostrich mobility and the authorities in the field did not mention a lift effect of the wings but made several references to them. The following is quoted from a study of ostrich mobility.
Newly reported research concerns ostriches. At first glance, these large birds might seem unlikely runners, but they are actually capable of taking on racehorses and certainly outmanoeuvring predators. Compared with humans, the centre of mass is higher, they have long spindly legs and long necks, and their heads are small. Not only can they run much faster than humans, they look remarkably graceful, even when changing direction. They do run turn differently: "When humans execute 30 degreees sidestep and crossover cuts, braking forces are 26% of Fpmax compared to 6-11% for ostriches executing 15-20 degree turns. Moreover, whereas humans generated almost exclusively braking forces during sidesteps and crossovers, 40% of the net forces observed during turns for ostriches were acceleratory." How do they achieve this remarkable performance?
"Most of the differences between ostriches and humans were explained by differences in body morphology. Ostrich morphology is appropriate for effective maneuvers that require minimal acceleratory or braking forces." "These results suggest that, with an appropriately designed morphological system, maneuvers can be executed with minimal changes to running dynamics." "In summary, ostrich morphology is appropriate for maneuvering without requiring large braking or acceleratory forces."
What stands out in these studies is the effectiveness of design thinking. Some will attribute this design to the powers of natural selection acting on genetic variations, with little or no direct evidence to support this hypothesis. However, there is another alternative, which is to be open to the possibility of this design being real, involving intelligent (rather than natural) agency. Ostriches have traditionally been considered the epitome of foolish behaviour, supposedly burying their heads in the sand. However, their running skills are outstanding and demonstrate superb design. One wonders whether heads are being buried in the sand when design inferences are excluded on ideological grounds from science.

Mechanics of cutting maneuvers by ostriches (Struthio camelus)
Devin L. Jindrich, Nicola C. Smith, Karin Jespers, and Alan M. Wilson
Journal of Experimental Biology, 2007 210: 1378-1390.

Abstract: We studied the strategies used by cursorial bipeds (ostriches) to maneuver during running. Eight ostriches were induced to run along a trackway and execute turns. Ground reaction forces and three-dimensional kinematics of the body and leg joints were simultaneously recorded, allowing calculation of joint angles and quasi-static net joint torques. Sidesteps, where the leg on the outside of the turn changes the movement direction, and crossovers using the inside leg, occurred with nearly equal frequency. Ostriches executed maneuvers using a simple control strategy that required minimal changes to leg kinematics or net torque production at individual joints. Although ostriches did use acceleration or braking forces to control body rotation, their morphology allowed for both crossovers and sidesteps to be accomplished with minimal net acceleratory/braking force production. Moreover, body roll and ab/adduction of the leg shifted the foot position away from the turn direction, reducing the acceleratory/braking forces required to prevent under- or over-rotation and aligning the leg with the ground reaction force.

It is very interesting reading isn't it conceptual.

There is an application of air cushion transport. Several aeroplanes have used this principal.

The Lun-class (Russian: "Hen Harrier") (NATO reporting name: "Utka"; Russian: "Duck") Wing-In-Ground effect vehicle was an extremely unusual aircraft designed by Rostislav Evgenievich Alexeev and used by the Soviet & Russian navies from 1987 to sometime in the late '90s. Wing-in-ground-effect aircraft use the extra lift of their large wings when in proximity to the surface (about one to four meters). It is also interesting to note that this aircraft is one of the largest ever built, with a length of 73m, rivaling that of the Hughes H-4 Hercules "Spruce Goose" and many modern jumbo jets.

The sole vessel of her class, MD-160 entered service with the Black Sea Fleet 1987. Eight JSC Motorostroitel NK-37 turbojets were mounted on forward-located canards, each delivering 127.4 kN (28,600 lbf) of thrust. MD-160 had a flying boat-like hull with a large deflecting plate at the bottom of the hull to provide a "step" for takeoff.

The aircraft was equipped for anti-submarine warfare. It was therefore fitted with six missile launchers, mounted in pairs on the dorsal surface of the fuselage, and advanced tracking systems mounted in the nose and tail. A development of the Lun was planned for use as a mobile field hospital, one which could be rapidly deployed to any ocean or coastal location. Work was begun on this model, the Spasatel, but budget cutbacks mean that it has never been completed.

This aircraft article is missing some (or all) of its specifications. If you have a source, you can help Wikipedia by adding them.

Here is a link to pictures of an aeroplane using this principle
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... 3-pics.htm

Here is a link to a 10minute plus video of this aeroplane, it is called a Sea Monster but they could have called it a Sea Ostrich because it is so similar to your idea.
http://www.searchthetube.com/JE0H-NFupq ... kranoplane

How fast is the ostrich?

First answer by 24.201.108.73. Last edit by 24.201.108.73. Question popularity: 1 [recommend question]
Ostrich isn't a slouch
The Ostrich is the fastest living animal on two feet. It can reach speeds of up to 60km/h

Devin Jindrich of Arizona State University and his colleagues report that it is their shape and behaviour that allow running ostriches to change direction so effortlessly, improving their chances of escape (p. 1378).

`We want to get at what makes them graceful,' explains Jindrich. While movement in one direction has been well modelled mathematically, the same models cannot easily be applied to variations in movement such as stops, starts, or changes in direction. Jindrich has developed his own mathematical model to describe such changes, so that he can understand how the effects of stability and manoeuvrability constrain organism design. Initially tested on cockroaches and humans, Jindrich wanted to test his model on a high-performance two-legged runner. Ostriches are ideal since they evolved as runners long before humans and have a completely different body shape. Alan Wilson, Nicola Smith and Karin Jespers at the Royal Veterinary College were already studying straight-line running in ostriches, and invited Jindrich to collaborate with them.

The team trained ostriches to run along a track and over a plate that measures the force as the foot hits the ground. They recorded the ostriches' body position using motion capture as they ran in a straight line, or around obstructions. An obstruction on the running track immediately after the plate caused the ostriches to change direction while stepping on the plate. They either turned to the left with a crossover step – stepping with the left leg and crossing over the right – or took a side step with the right leg to bypass the obstruction.

To make a successful turn, a runner needs to move in the intended direction without over- or under-rotating. Jindrich calculated that the ostrich's egg-shaped, horizontally orientated body has a higher inertia than the more vertical human body shape. As objects with a higher moment of inertia are more difficult to rotate, Jindrich predicted that ostriches were less likely to over-rotate than humans. Indeed he found that while humans decelerate to prevent over-rotation, on average ostriches generate fewer deceleration forces. In individual cases the birds generated both acceleration and deceleration forces to control their body orientation, but these are reduced because of their body shape with its higher inertia.

To find out if the ostriches were using twisting forces, or torques, in turning, the team used markers placed near the leg joints to measure the torques produced by the leg muscles. They found that as the leg hits the ground, the angle of the leg is very close to the angle of the force. This reduces the torque and produces similar forces to those recorded during straight running. So rather than twisting at the joints, the torque is maintained and ostriches change direction by simply rolling their body into the turn.

It is this combination of body shape and behaviour that allows running ostriches to change direction so gracefully. Exactly how the muscles generate stabilising forces while manoeuvring will be the focus of future work, along with neural control of the muscles.

References


Jindrich, D. L., Smith, N. C., Jespers, K. and Wilson, A. M. (2007). Mechanics of cutting maneuvers by ostriches (Struthio camelus). J. Exp. Biol. 210,1378 -1390.[Abstract/Free Full Text]

Although only an abstract this is also quite interesting.
Jindrich DL, Smith NC, Jespers K, Wilson AM.
Department of Kinesiology, Physical Education Building East 107B, Arizona State University, Tempe, AZ 85287-0404, USA. devin.jindrich@asu.edu

We studied the strategies used by cursorial bipeds (ostriches) to maneuver during running. Eight ostriches were induced to run along a trackway and execute turns. Ground reaction forces and three-dimensional kinematics of the body and leg joints were simultaneously recorded, allowing calculation of joint angles and quasi-static net joint torques. Sidesteps, where the leg on the outside of the turn changes the movement direction, and crossovers using the inside leg, occurred with nearly equal frequency. Ostriches executed maneuvers using a simple control strategy that required minimal changes to leg kinematics or net torque production at individual joints. Although ostriches did use acceleration or braking forces to control body rotation, their morphology allowed for both crossovers and sidesteps to be accomplished with minimal net acceleratory/braking force production. Moreover, body roll and ab/adduction of the leg shifted the foot position away from the turn direction, reducing the acceleratory/braking forces required to prevent under- or over-rotation and aligning the leg with the ground reaction force.
Jindrich DL, Smith NC, Jespers K, Wilson AM.
Department of Kinesiology, Physical Education Building East 107B, Arizona State University, Tempe, AZ 85287-0404, USA. devin.jindrich@asu.edu

We studied the strategies used by cursorial bipeds (ostriches) to maneuver during running. Eight ostriches were induced to run along a trackway and execute turns. Ground reaction forces and three-dimensional kinematics of the body and leg joints were simultaneously recorded, allowing calculation of joint angles and quasi-static net joint torques. Sidesteps, where the leg on the outside of the turn changes the movement direction, and crossovers using the inside leg, occurred with nearly equal frequency. Ostriches executed maneuvers using a simple control strategy that required minimal changes to leg kinematics or net torque production at individual joints. Although ostriches did use acceleration or braking forces to control body rotation, their morphology allowed for both crossovers and sidesteps to be accomplished with minimal net acceleratory/braking force production. Moreover, body roll and ab/adduction of the leg shifted the foot position away from the turn direction, reducing the acceleratory/braking forces required to prevent under- or over-rotation and aligning the leg with the ground reaction force.

I hope this material contributes to the ongoing discussion of introducing the aerodynamics of the ostrich into future Formula 1 design.
Last edited by Carlos on 15 Nov 2007, 22:02, edited 5 times in total.

Carlos
Carlos
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Joined: 02 Sep 2006, 19:43
Location: Canada

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What I enjoy about the F1technical forum is " we don't stick our head in the sand like an ostrich" when presented with a novel idea or speculative concept. :roll:

antrock
antrock
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Joined: 20 Jun 2007, 17:14

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while i didn't have enough time to read all of these long replies i don't think those wings have anything in common with ostriches :D

i am not sure about the rest of those 'side monocoque wings' but ferrari's wings are there to direct air into the sidepod's radiator intakes while enabling engineers and drivers to get away with extreme front wing angles. yes it does create a bit of lift but it helps cooling and they can create more than enough frontwing downforce to counterbalance the small amount of lift

Carlos
Carlos
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Joined: 02 Sep 2006, 19:43
Location: Canada

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:D :D :D Notice the ostrich style wings on my avatar. :D :D :D

Conceptual
Conceptual
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Joined: 15 Nov 2007, 03:33

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Thanks for the replies! My question has been answered!

I'll post more interesting questions in the future!

Chris