2017 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, 12-14 May

[iotar__]

Can you spot the common factor? The one with mojo, losing races from the lead in the quicker car. Excuses making hypocrisy of the lowest quality, it wasn't Vettel it was DRS .

Yes vettel is well known for losing races from the lead in the quicker car. I still remember when he lost 4 championships in the quicker car...

Honestly if there is anything Vet excels is controlling a race from the front. This weekend a bad strategy that nullified all the gap he had before going to the stint with tyre disadvantage lost him the race.

Focus, it's 2017. I'm not interested in paper championships. He lost USA '12 and some other races too.

You didn't mind DRS when Vettel was using it
- against Bottas, short memory since it was during the same race.
- against Ricciardo, Raikkonen and Verstappen in China.

[Big Mangalhit]

I'm not the same person, never complained about DRS ever. I think if it is finely tuned it can aid the racing. But if the zone is too short is useless and if too long is to easy to OT. Also I hate one there is only one detection point for both zones that is just stupid.

See this race it gave us the beautiful overtake of Vettel on Bottas but kinda robbed us of a longer better fight for the lead which could be awesome, but I guess that is more track related than DRS. And I say this only from a viewer point regardless of the intervenient.

[dans79]

To me, the comparison says nothing more than: Vettel did the better job in S1 and S2, and Hamilton seemed to enjoy more grip in S3 to recover what he lost.

To me this all come down to setup bias, and the fact the Softs couldn't handle a full qualifying lap, so the drivers/teams had to decide where to save the tires. None of the top drivers could string their best 3 sectors together. The most anyone got was 2.

best sector times.
http://www.fia.com/file/56880/download?token=T8qnGw2n

Sector 1:
Rai - 21.616
Vet - 21.626 (+0.010)
Ham - 21.730 (+ 0.114)
Bot - 21.752 (+0.136)

Sector 2:
Vet - 29.440
Ham 29.537 (+0.097)
Bot 29.543 (+0.103)
Rai 29.657 (+0.217)

Sector 3:
Ham 27.647
Bot 27.912 (+0.265)
Ver 27.965 (+0.318)
Rai 28.055 (+0.408)
Vet 28.106 (+0.459)

Best combined laps:
Ham - 78.914
Vet - 79.172 (+0.248)
Bot - 79.207 (+0.293)
Rai - 79.323 (+0.409)

[Restomaniac]

To me, the comparison says nothing more than: Vettel did the better job in S1 and S2, and Hamilton seemed to enjoy more grip in S3 to recover what he lost.

To me this all come down to setup bias, and the fact the Softs couldn't handle a full qualifying lap, so the drivers/teams had to decide where to save the tires. None of the top drivers could string their best 3 sectors together. The most anyone got was 2.

best sector times.
http://www.fia.com/file/56880/download?token=T8qnGw2n

Sector 1:
Rai - 21.616
Vet - 21.626 (+0.010)
Ham - 21.730 (+ 0.114)
Bot - 21.752 (+0.136)

Sector 2:
Vet - 29.440
Ham 29.537 (+0.097)
Bot 29.543 (+0.103)
Rai 29.657 (+0.217)

Sector 3:
Ham 27.647
Bot 27.912 (+0.265)
Ver 27.965 (+0.318)
Rai 28.055 (+0.408)
Vet 28.106 (+0.459)

Best combined laps:
Ham - 78.914
Vet - 79.172 (+0.248)
Bot - 79.207 (+0.293)
Rai - 79.323 (+0.409)

That's what I have been saying all along.
The S3 problem wasn't Vettel's driving it was that he had used his tyres. Hamilton was far more conservative in S1/2 and it came back it him when Vettel ended up fighting his car.
This is the point about Race pace/conditions. If they had gone for another lap Hamilton would have driven away from Vettel as Vettel's tyres had screamed that they had had enough.

The excuse that Vettel made a mistake in sector 3 just ignores that Hamilton made a mistake early on his quickest lap.

[dans79]

Hamilton was far more conservative in S1/2 and it came back it him when Vettel ended up fighting his car.

Only on his first Q3 lap. He set his best sector 1 & 2 times on his final lap, and he paid for them in the 3rd sector.

[Restomaniac]

Hamilton was far more conservative in S1/2 and it came back it him when Vettel ended up fighting his car.

Only on his first Q3 lap. He set his best sector 1 & 2 times on his final lap, and he paid for them in the 3rd sector.

Indeed but I believe it was on his first go that he set his fastest time.

Like I said the comparison between the 2 is valid. Hamilton saved his tyres early on Vettel burned through his. If they had kept pushing Hamilton would have left Vettel behind because Vettel he had cooked his tyres.

Who had tyres left at the end and who was the fastest on a single lap? It was the Mercedes on both points. So where the idea by some that Ferrari were faster and better at tyre maintenance I have no idea.

[Schuttelberg]

@ Phil, I'm aware that without DRS, Vettel didn't have a prayer with Bottas. This is not about the drivers. It's just my lust for organic racing rather than DRS.

[Phillyred]

Bottas slowing down Vettel on 2 occasions and Hamilton's "magic" pitstop right at the end of the VSC AND Hamilton nursing his tires helped Lewis win the race. 5 more laps and Vettel would have caught and passed him.

[Schuttelberg]

I have to say, DRS really ruins some races!

Yes the ones that Vettel gets overtaken using it. When he passes another with a much less powerfull engine aboard even, say in China or so, using it I didn't hear you

Sorry to disappoint you my friend, but I'm not the kinds to sod when my favourites get beat. I'm more for the racing quality. I don't think all these guys need some sort of button to pass and I say with a great deal of pride that Formula 1 isn't a series where you get to see a great deal of passing. It's a series where passing is rare but when they happen, you always remember it. I think LH would have still beat SV today, DRS or no DRS and I'm sulking about the fact that I couldn't see the two bang heads in a more organic manner. Once LH got the exit out of the final turn which has been Merc's strength and Ferrari's weakness, the writing was on the wall. It wasn't even side by side as LH could drive around him. Just my two cents my friend.

BTW, all of SV's passes were non DRS passes in China. I only remember the one on DR and KR and they were both non DRS assisted. If he made other DRS passes, I can't care about them.

For everybody that thinks I'm trying to undermine LH, it was not my intention at all. This is all I truly want (above post).

I have nothing but respect for LH. Yes, I have my favourites but over and above I'm a racing fan.

[siskue2005]

If you reamember ,last year Red Bull were in their own league.Mrcedes and Ferrari were much slower compered to Riciardo.
And even with Red Bull mistake in pit, Hamilton has grabed win.

Up until q2 Lewis was clearly faster
Until his car gave up. And that gave Riccardo the pole.

And if u have actually seen the race, it was raining and Ricardo was in front without any spray. And Rosberg was well being Rosberg in rain and cost Lewis 15 sec. That allowed Riccardo to pit and come just behind Lewis who was on Wet tyres on a dry track, when Riccardo was on inters.
And Lewis went for ultra soft and Riccardo on Super soft which was the best tyre for the condition and also there was 40 more laps to go. And Lewis with inferior tyres was just trying to hold back for 44 laps.

This is what happened.
a) Lewis car gave before q3 and he could only manage 1 attempt at pole with furl for 7 laps in the car
b) the Rosberg train gave Riccardo the lead to defend.
It was due to RBR pit blunder and great driving from Lewis which allowed him to win it.
The RBR car never faster. It was the situation which put it in this position

[Restomaniac]

Bottas slowing down Vettel on 2 occasions and Hamilton's "magic" pitstop right at the end of the VSC AND Hamilton nursing his tires helped Lewis win the race. 5 more laps and Vettel would have caught and passed him.

And if my Aunt had any-nay's she would be my Uncle. I could be wrong but I'm quite sure that Mercedes knew the race length and hadn't worked their strat out to include an extra 5 laps.

[siskue2005]

@ Phil, I'm aware that without DRS, Vettel didn't have a prayer with Bottas. This is not about the drivers. It's just my lust for organic racing rather than DRS.

Organic meaning processions like we had in 2010? Where Alonso lost the WDC when he was stuck behind Petrov for 50 laps?
Hmmm... I am sure u would have praised the DRS if Vettel had overtaken Lewis for the win, claiming that how the DRS helped to overcome the deficiency of the poor Ferrari PU and also would have praised the VSC if it had gone in Vettel's favour

[Big Mangalhit]

@ Phil, I'm aware that without DRS, Vettel didn't have a prayer with Bottas. This is not about the drivers. It's just my lust for organic racing rather than DRS.

Organic meaning processions like we had in 2010? Where Alonso lost the WDC when he was stuck behind Petrov for 50 laps?
Hmmm... I am sure u would have praised the DRS if Vettel had overtaken Lewis for the win, claiming that how the DRS helped to overcome the deficiency of the poor Ferrari PU and also would have praised the VSC if it had gone in Vettel's favour

So unfair. He actually never posted anything biased towards Vettel. I bet if it was not for his avatar/signature you would no even know he was a fan. But because of that he is always accused of being bias and never acknowledged when he downplays Vettel.

[siskue2005]

Ok I might have misunderstood

[Phil]

Yeah, we shouldn't make this about who has a preference in who. This isn't relevant to the point either of us is making.

I do believe in the concept of organic racing... just, that it doesn't work in a Formula that is so dependent on aero (and creates dirty air) and at the same time forces drivers into pit stops to spice up the racing and brings them into traffic.

It's really simple: Take away DRS and leave the rest and you'll end up with races where potentially the quickest driver ends up in traffic because he stopped to pit for a mandatory tire and is then stuck behind another driver who is significantly slower but on a different strategy. The consequence would be more lottery wins as no one can predict what every other driver on the track will do and some wins will be as a result of lucking into pitting at the right time with the least amount of traffic.

Yes, some tracks are less crucial than others where passes without DRS are possible, but I think we understand enough of the sport that overtaking is not always a question of how "ballsy" a driver is (even if Verstappen fans like to think that), but pretty much a consequence of the speed difference of two cars and how vulnerable one is whilst driving behind another. Sorry, but you can have the best driver in any hypothetical car, but if he loses so much downforce on his front end while following another into the last corner before a long straight, there's simply little chance he'll make that emerging gap up all else being equal (e.g. similar acceleration).

And who is to say that the advantage of one driver following another and gaining an advantage due to getting a tow on a long straight is less artificial than being able to shed some drag with DRS? One could argue that the leading driver is handicapped too, just that in this case, the "advantage" is not artificially induced.

As I said, I'm all for more organic racing, but then the entire Formula needs to be changed to something where it's all about mechanical grip, where aero will be less a factor. But how then satisfy the need to be 'fastest, most prestigious technologically driven sport"?