Oil as fuel

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
George-Jung
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Re: Oil as fuel

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What is this?!! Mercedes is still allowed to burn 1.2L of OIL per 100km, because they brought their updated engine already in SPA?

Does this mean that all other teams have to use the 0.9L from Monza onwards??

If this is true, than season is over.. what a BS!!!

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Phil
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Re: Oil as fuel

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Funny, AMuS was adament that Mercedes intends (intended) to run their new engine at the new oil limit. But of course one then has to wonder why go through the effort to bring the new engine a race early.

There is also reports that Mercedes and Ferrari had some gentlemens agreement to not bring their new engines before Monza. Obviously, Mercedes is down playing this saying that these reports were rubbish.

One has to wonder...

Evenso, if Mercedes gets away with it - why not? Ferrari could have done the same. They've been just as much into oil burning up until Canada too. F1 is a brutal sport where teams will do everything to win. Being the "nice guy" just doesnt win championships. In fact, i think the fact that Ferrari hasnt been doing that is precisely why they are doing so well this year (both on a car level as on a political level too).
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
#Team44 supporter

basti313
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Re: Oil as fuel

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Phil wrote:
Tue Aug 29, 2017 1:59 pm
Evenso, if Mercedes gets away with it - why not? Ferrari could have done the same.
Ferrari asked the FIA for any engine changes. Merc announced the new ICE to the FIA really in the last moment to keep it hidden.
In regards to politics, Mr Marlboro looks like an amateur compared to Niki and Toto. :D

ojlopez
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Re: Oil as fuel

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George-Jung wrote:
Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:40 pm
What is this?!! Mercedes is still allowed to burn 1.2L of OIL per 100km, because they brought their updated engine already in SPA?

Does this mean that all other teams have to use the 0.9L from Monza onwards??

If this is true, than season is over.. what a BS!!!
I could not agree with you more. All the teams, no matter which engine number they are on should not be allowed to burn more oil than what rules say.

Ennis
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Re: Oil as fuel

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ojlopez wrote:
Tue Aug 29, 2017 3:11 pm
George-Jung wrote:
Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:40 pm
What is this?!! Mercedes is still allowed to burn 1.2L of OIL per 100km, because they brought their updated engine already in SPA?

Does this mean that all other teams have to use the 0.9L from Monza onwards??

If this is true, than season is over.. what a BS!!!
I could not agree with you more. All the teams, no matter which engine number they are on should not be allowed to burn more oil than what rules say.
Yes - but the rules say that Merc can burn 1.2 on this engine.

How big a deal is this in laptimes? Any of our resident experts able to guesstimate?

Sevach
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Re: Oil as fuel

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George-Jung wrote:
Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:40 pm
What is this?!! Mercedes is still allowed to burn 1.2L of OIL per 100km, because they brought their updated engine already in SPA?

Does this mean that all other teams have to use the 0.9L from Monza onwards??

If this is true, than season is over.. what a BS!!!
The correct thing would be to postpone this measure until next year.
As i said in the other thread, you have to be a special kind of stupid to bring a new rule with this mega obvious loophole.

And also apparently this extra power is achieved by adding fuel enhancers to the oil, basically if there were no rules regarding what you can do with your fuel this wouldn't be a thing, teams would just put these things directly in their fuel... wouldn't it be easier to just issue a clarification of what is accepted as oil? What elements it isn't allowed to contain?

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Big Mangalhit
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Re: Oil as fuel

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Sevach wrote:
Tue Aug 29, 2017 4:14 pm
George-Jung wrote:
Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:40 pm
What is this?!! Mercedes is still allowed to burn 1.2L of OIL per 100km, because they brought their updated engine already in SPA?

Does this mean that all other teams have to use the 0.9L from Monza onwards??

If this is true, than season is over.. what a BS!!!
The correct thing would be to postpone this measure until next year.
As i said in the other thread, you have to be a special kind of stupid to bring a new rule with this mega obvious loophole.

And also apparently this extra power is achieved by adding fuel enhancers to the oil, basically if there were no rules regarding what you can do with your fuel this wouldn't be a thing, teams would just put these things directly in their fuel... wouldn't it be easier to just issue a clarification of what is accepted as oil? What elements it isn't allowed to contain?
Yes the correct thing would be that or if anything change the oil limit for every engine introduced after the directive came out, and not leave the pre-monza loophole (obvious as you stated) open.

Vortex37
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Re: Oil as fuel

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One area of research in engine lubrication is MWCNT's. These burn very nicely at their flash point.

CriXus
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Re: Oil as fuel

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“The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” - George Bernard Shaw

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
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Re: Oil as fuel

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Ye gods.. ESPN dumb-as 'expert' or what.. the unlimited/no rule oil consumption - as a performance advantage..
..has been discussed here on this forum.. going back, oh, 'bout a year & a 1/2, now..

& to say that burnt F1 oil smelt like "an old London bus" - whereas Mark Webber said the oil burn "...smells like power!"

Filthy old used & abused oil - stinks in crappy old worn-out 4T's when burned, but fresh, well-formulated F1 oil - no way..
Dr Moreau sez..
"Who breaks the law... goes back to the House of Pain!"

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AnthonyG
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Re: Oil as fuel

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That guys refers to the caloric value of oil, isn't that completely wrong?

In my view the advantage of using oil in the combustion chamber is allowing to cool down the engine in off-throttle applications. The caloric value of oil is lower than fuel, but the cooling properties are better. They burn oil in stead of fuel, allowing for
1.more fuel for on-throttle application
2.a leaner mixture

Disregarding other factors, that .3l /100km oil burning advantage would actually require a fuel flow increase higher than .3 from other engines to even it out.
Thank you really doesn't really describe enough what I feel. - Vettel

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FW17
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Re: Oil as fuel

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Did the FIA say the limit is prorate?

Tipo59/06
Tipo59/06
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Re: Oil as fuel

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100kg/hr of fuel= 43 MJ/kg


I'm not fully convinced that 1.2l or .9l of allowable oil consumption has or could have any effect in terms of adding energy...its too small of an amount for calorific value

Take for eg that a good portion of that allowable oil loss is going to happen anyway to keep the engine alive.....so one cannot factor the full 1.2L in terms of burnable/heat energy...and its a very small amount Perhaps for Q3 for half a lap...but how can you meter it effectively...or atomize it to burn.....and to what effect does it leave a harmful detonation deposit ...particularly on a high pressure boosted engine that's used for 5 races

I'm keeping a open mind but Ive always felt this oil feeding as its currently happening(because it is ) is a migration technique more related to eliminating blow by and providing a sealing effect than for the pure heat energy amount of what is effectively a very small portion of heat energy

just my two cents
Last edited by Tipo59/06 on Fri Sep 01, 2017 3:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
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Re: Oil as fuel

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Counter-intuitively perhaps, but empirical testing on 2T's has shown that adding more oil (to about 20-1 fuel/oil ratio)..
in fact reduced unwanted carbon deposits, as well as improving sealing/lubrication..

The 'elephant in the room' is of course, the matter of additional active fuel-burn catalyst components - added via oil..
I note that the FIM is also - belatedly - stipulating mandatory limits of additives deemed allowable, in oil composition blends..
Dr Moreau sez..
"Who breaks the law... goes back to the House of Pain!"

Tipo59/06
Tipo59/06
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Re: Oil as fuel

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Yes Jaw Agreed..... we've all seen the oil wash effect that will clean a piston off in close proximity to the outer ring land area on a worn engine with considerable consumption But closer to the spark plug(alas there isnt one!) the deposit can be more aggressive and problematic does the jet ignition in fact promote more clean oil burn due to less centralized combustion effect Interesting

Ive seen the 2T oil migration charts...and concur

Ive always been under the impression that the additives and HC added to the oil have been more easily policed...as there would always be a trace in the oil sample.....and they do test for that