2017 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 10-12 November

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Restomaniac
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Re: 2017 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 10-12 November

Post by Restomaniac » Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:15 am

It all plays into the narrative though.

SKY made a huge deal about how Ferrari needed this and how it will give them confidence going into the winter. It was once again SKY climbing up Ferrari's *ss.

I'm not sure who they are trying to kid. Hamilton getting to 5.5sec of the lead and pretty much eating the rest of the field from the pitlane should have warning sirens blaring at Ferrari HQ. Are Ferrari really that naive or just the SKY mob? Remembering that the Mercedes team are still having problems with their car at times.

What happens when they don't have to build around not having trick. Or will Ferrari be allowed to torpedo their opponents car again because Ferrari didn't think of something first.
Last edited by turbof1 on Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: language

NathanOlder
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Re: 2017 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 10-12 November

Post by NathanOlder » Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:01 am

Yeah i think next year will see Ferrari fighting Mclaren for occasional podiums. This year was perfect for Ferrari. New rules, a decent PU and 2 main rivals havinh parts banned at the start of the season. As Nico Rosberg said the other day, Ferrari's best chance has now gone. Next year will probably be Lewis vs Max.

Game on.
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Vasconia
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Re: 2017 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 10-12 November

Post by Vasconia » Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:33 am

NathanOlder wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:01 am
Yeah i think next year will see Ferrari fighting Mclaren for occasional podiums. This year was perfect for Ferrari. New rules, a decent PU and 2 main rivals havinh parts banned at the start of the season. As Nico Rosberg said the other day, Ferrari's best chance has now gone. Next year will probably be Lewis vs Max.

Game on.
Why? Ferrari has been able to build a great cardespite all the doom of despair predicted by many here. What is more even important Ferrari has been able to keep up with the in-season development, something we have only see a few times since 2007. I dont see any reason to expect a worse car. It can happen indeed, as it could happen with Mercedes or Red bull, but Ferrari has ended the season very close to Mercedes and sometimes being better. With the same rules the new Ferrari should be even better.

Red Bull is very strong and they will be very strong in 2018 but Renault needs to close the gap with Mercedes and Ferrari´s PU, if not, they will only fight for victories in only a few tracks.

Restomaniac
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Re: 2017 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 10-12 November

Post by Restomaniac » Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:24 pm

Vasconia wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:33 am
NathanOlder wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:01 am
Yeah i think next year will see Ferrari fighting Mclaren for occasional podiums. This year was perfect for Ferrari. New rules, a decent PU and 2 main rivals havinh parts banned at the start of the season. As Nico Rosberg said the other day, Ferrari's best chance has now gone. Next year will probably be Lewis vs Max.

Game on.
Why? Ferrari has been able to build a great cardespite all the doom of despair predicted by many here. What is more even important Ferrari has been able to keep up with the in-season development, something we have only see a few times since 2007. I dont see any reason to expect a worse car. It can happen indeed, as it could happen with Mercedes or Red bull, but Ferrari has ended the season very close to Mercedes and sometimes being better. With the same rules the new Ferrari should be even better.

Red Bull is very strong and they will be very strong in 2018 but Renault needs to close the gap with Mercedes and Ferrari´s PU, if not, they will only fight for victories in only a few tracks.
Mercedes and Red Bull started the season with a major part of their planned car banned weeks before it started. All on an appeal by Ferrari. You do realise that, don't you?
What do you expect to happen when Mercedes and Red Bull can design a car without 1 hand tied behind their backs?

I said this weeks ago. This was Ferrari's best chance. In 2018 Mercedes and Red Bull don't have to design a car around a banned key part of their car. Hell Mercedes are already making noises about a rethink on car build.

Vasconia
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Re: 2017 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 10-12 November

Post by Vasconia » Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:37 pm

Restomaniac wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:24 pm
I said this weeks ago. This was Ferrari's best chance. In 2018 Mercedes and Red Bull don't have to design a car around a banned key part of their car. Hell Mercedes are already making noises about a rethink on car build.
Mercedes is(likely) to re-desing their car with a shorter wheelbase because it semes that their current design has almost reached its limit. They find interesting too that Ferrari´s shorter wheelbase has mad possible to build a more adaptable car.

Its a risky move fore sure, because they could fail.

If Renault makes an step forward Red Bull could have an advantage here because I guess they have begun earlier than Ferrari and Mercedes to design the 2018 car.

I think that Mercedes PU is closer to its limit than Ferrari/Renault´s PU so it will be interesting to see if they can close the gap even more.

santos
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Re: 2017 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 10-12 November

Post by santos » Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:31 pm

NathanOlder wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:01 am
Yeah i think next year will see Ferrari fighting Mclaren for occasional podiums. This year was perfect for Ferrari. New rules, a decent PU and 2 main rivals havinh parts banned at the start of the season. As Nico Rosberg said the other day, Ferrari's best chance has now gone. Next year will probably be Lewis vs Max.

Game on.
The biggest problem of Red Bull is Renault. Renault wants to be fighting for victorys. There will be a moment in time that they will have to have an advantage over their customers teams.

Restomaniac
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Re: 2017 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 10-12 November

Post by Restomaniac » Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:46 pm

Vasconia wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:37 pm
Restomaniac wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:24 pm
I said this weeks ago. This was Ferrari's best chance. In 2018 Mercedes and Red Bull don't have to design a car around a banned key part of their car. Hell Mercedes are already making noises about a rethink on car build.
Mercedes is(likely) to re-desing their car with a shorter wheelbase because it semes that their current design has almost reached its limit. They find interesting too that Ferrari´s shorter wheelbase has mad possible to build a more adaptable car.

Its a risky move fore sure, because they could fail.

If Renault makes an step forward Red Bull could have an advantage here because I guess they have begun earlier than Ferrari and Mercedes to design the 2018 car.

I think that Mercedes PU is closer to its limit than Ferrari/Renault´s PU so it will be interesting to see if they can close the gap even more.
The reason IMHO goes back to trick problem.
Both Mercedes and Red Bull had it. When it was banned Red Bull were nearer to the Ferrari ideal (shortwheel base, high rake) so although it hurt them they were able to work around it better.
Mercedes where knocked 6 yards sideways as their car was not as easily modified. That IMHO is why they cannot get a car with no trick, a long wheelbase and almost no rake to work consistently. Its also why they are looking at shortening and adding rake (just like someone said they would months ago :wink: ).

Like I say Ferrari caught Mercedes and Red Bull cold with that late helping hand from the FIA. I would love to have seen the faces of Messrs Wolff and Horner when that little gem appeared.

The reason it was interesting in Brazil though is because it clearly showed that when that Mercedes works it truely works it's just not consistent enough on tighter tracks. I do think that if you gave Red Bull a Mercedes or Ferrari engine in Interlagos they would have won.

Big Mangalhit
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Re: 2017 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 10-12 November

Post by Big Mangalhit » Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:58 pm

Restomaniac wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:46 pm

The reason IMHO goes back to trick problem.
Both Mercedes and Red Bull had it. When it was banned Red Bull were nearer to the Ferrari ideal (shortwheel base, high rake) so although it hurt them they were able to work around it better.
...
Well IMHO your opinion is incorrect. Sure the ban on the suspension took them out of an option to use later on but that was not game changing as you might think. In fact even Horner said they wouldn't even use it for the first races if it was allowed. https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/red- ... rm-887147/

Also Ferrari didn't ban it, they questioned it to ask if they could also use it and it was deemed illegal. The same way as the oil burn ban worked the other way around. Just normal F1 stuff. I know that is very easy to get carried away and think every piece of news about the car is a silver bullet but most of the times these things only have a small net gain of speed that all compound together can make that 0.5s difference that wins or loses. But it is not the suspension or the oil alone that wins or loses.

NathanOlder wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:01 am
Yeah i think next year will see Ferrari fighting Mclaren for occasional podiums. This year was perfect for Ferrari. New rules, a decent PU and 2 main rivals havinh parts banned at the start of the season. As Nico Rosberg said the other day, Ferrari's best chance has now gone. Next year will probably be Lewis vs Max.

Game on.
Well last year everybody said that with rules changing to aero focus and Allison leaving the team they would be doomed and the fight should be between RB and Merc.This year they started with a win and 8 months later here in Brazil we saw a Ferrari that is still competitive even after a full year of development after the new rules for every team. So why should they blunder in 5 months time?

drunkf1fan
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Re: 2017 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 10-12 November

Post by drunkf1fan » Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:08 pm

I'd not remotely say that the Ferrari is a more adaptable car, it's more competitive than Mercedes potentially at a few tracks, but it's less competitive and significantly more tracks than the Mercedes is. Ferrari managed for instance to get good qualifying speeds at a few tracks but had worse race pace, they've frequently had worse tire wear, sometimes fairly significantly as in Cota. Mercedes is still significantly more versatile.

The biggest issue I feel is, I still think the 2017 car was born out of 2015 unlimited aero testing through Haas. I can't believe that I can have the idea to focus on the new regulations using that aero testing loophole that only they had access to but Ferrari didn't. It also explains to me how Ferrari hit 2017 hardest and most crucially imo, had the biggest change in general aero philosophy and design than any other team. Mercedes I feel didn't bring their true 2017 package aero wise till Spain while Ferrari had the early 2017 car ready ages before the season and their midseason updates were again for me born out of having the early 2017 aero package ready so early due to 2015 testing.

Both of these things show up as a major problem imo, if Ferrari only made such a step due to such a testing loophole and they only developed well in season due to having extra long time to develop this car. In both cases and that they managed to get their competitors suspension banned, which appears to have hurt RBR much more than Mercedes, though seemingly with RBR finding a fix for it since singapore when they've been monumentally more competitive(before new renault engines were available), Ferrari look very much like the third fastest team right now to me, well when Renault aren't making their teams run engine modes low enough to ensure all three teams can start the final race of the season that is.

Can Ferrari use a decent car as a basis for moving forwards, of course they can, but to me the 2017 car had every advantage possible and it still failed and it will only be much harder and much less likely for them next year. Ferrari need to get into the F1 spirit, they need to start making absurd offers for the best people at RBR and Mercedes and let them build a modern F1 team that doesn't rely on fear and mass firings to 'motivate' the team to do better.

drunkf1fan
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Re: 2017 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 10-12 November

Post by drunkf1fan » Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:15 pm

Big Mangalhit wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:58 pm

Well last year everybody said that with rules changing to aero focus and Allison leaving the team they would be doomed and the fight should be between RB and Merc.This year they started with a win and 8 months later here in Brazil we saw a Ferrari that is still competitive even after a full year of development after the new rules for every team. So why should they blunder in 5 months time?
Are they competitive really? Hamilton was 5.4 seconds down in a Mercedes, all Renault engine cars were turned down to make sure they had a working engine for Abu Dhabi to save the embarrassment of having several Renault engine cars unable to start as they appear to have a lack of spare engines with them blowing at the rate they have been. So being ahead of RBR all of a sudden is meaningless. Before that happened Kimi was 54 seconds behind Verstappen. Renault lacks higher engine modes for qualifying, if they didn't then Max would have been on pole, Ferrari is really the only team that mostly doesn't have an issue getting tires in the window for difficult qualifying (Singapore, Mexico), but they also have worse tire wear most places. their race pace has been pretty poor for the last 5 or so races, fp2 in Singapore looked bad for them, Cota wasn't great, again Ham cruising on a worse for tire strategy was under no threat, Vettel got the lead as he used too much tire life and wasn't fast enough pushing hard on a two stop to gain time back and also had to stop much earlier. He barely finished 2 seconds ahead of Max who started in 16th. In Japan Kimi was 37 seconds off the lead.

Bottas is a good 20-30 seconds slower than Hamilton in race pace now, Ferrari were just matching Bottas, if they had superior pace and were truly competitive honestly Kimi would have passed Bottas easily and Vettel would have even cruising had a much larger gap. Ferrari are competing with the second tier drivers at the faster two teams when earlier in the year they were competing at the front.

Vasconia
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Re: 2017 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 10-12 November

Post by Vasconia » Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:34 pm

So according to you Ferrari is not competitive even though they won the race and Kimi was third.

Sorry but you are manipulating all the data to try to convince us that Ferrari is not compeitive.

1. Renault: what we saw in Brazil was closer to what Renault has been in this season. They were not "down turned" they were "turned to what is normal" because Max´s performance in Mexico was thanks to the great optimism of Renault with their PU. We all know what happened with the rest.

2. FP2 and FP3 showed that Ferrari had good race pace(as it usually has happened this season even they don´t have a competitive car according to you), I am pretty sure that Vettel could have been faster, but they didnt need to do it.

3. Once again, Mercedes in Hamilton´s car was faster but not with the diference we saw in the race. Give Vettel fresh components and the perfect set-up and I am sure that his pace would have been also faster.

Big Mangalhit
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Re: 2017 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 10-12 November

Post by Big Mangalhit » Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:55 pm

drunkf1fan wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:15 pm
Big Mangalhit wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:58 pm

Well last year everybody said that with rules changing to aero focus and Allison leaving the team they would be doomed and the fight should be between RB and Merc.This year they started with a win and 8 months later here in Brazil we saw a Ferrari that is still competitive even after a full year of development after the new rules for every team. So why should they blunder in 5 months time?
Are they competitive really?
Yup, they won the race and got double podium

dans79
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Re: 2017 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 10-12 November

Post by dans79 » Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:01 pm

Vasconia wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:33 am
Why?
Imo, this shows why. Over the last decade, Ferrari has had a hard time improving on consecutive years. This year they have had no back to back wins, or no back to back dual podiums. I know Fans don't want to hear it, but I expect next year they will either maintain their position or fall back.
Year WCC WDC
2008   1   2
2009   4   6 
2010   3   2
2011   3   4
2012   2   2
2013   3   2
2014   4   6
2015   2   3
2016   3   4
2017   2   2

santos
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Re: 2017 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 10-12 November

Post by santos » Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:32 pm

dans79 wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:01 pm
Vasconia wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:33 am
Why?
Imo, this shows why. Over the last decade, Ferrari has had a hard time improving on consecutive years. This year they have had no back to back wins, or no back to back dual podiums. I know Fans don't want to hear it, but I expect next year they will either maintain their position or fall back.
Well, they one more races this year then the other two together. I also heard before the season start that Red Bull would be strong this year. And Mclaren could be fighting for podiums.

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Re: 2017 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 10-12 November

Post by George-Jung » Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:38 pm

#-o Hamilton sure did have a superb drive- but lets see things in perspective.

Hamilton finished also within a couple of seconds of another Mercedes..

So how worried does Ferrari really need to be? Hamilton just had a great drive and used his new PU properly instead of ‘cruising’ around as the top 3 did.

In Malaysia Vettel did the same, started from the back and drove his balls off finishing 4th, including overtaking a Mercedes.
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