Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
j.yank
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by j.yank » Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:57 pm

Wazari wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:02 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:03 pm
There's nothing to suggest Mercedes won't take another clear step forward. This is a 5 year project, Honda is just entering year 4. The power unit evolves by the hands of humans, thus it is imbued with certain lifelike qualities, much like humans go through a big change after adolescence after a long slow period of development, so too will this power unit go though a significant step forward. No hope involved, just understanding how things evolve, Honda will surprise people next year, and if TR is allowed to develop the chassis they will be strong.
Nice post. All manufacturers will take a step forward, that's obvious. However there is a law of diminishing returns. Mercedes' gains should be incrementally smaller. They already have a big advantage in fuel usage efficiency over the others.

2018 PU as Hasegawa-san stated, should be quite an evolution of this year's PU with the overall layout staying the same. It is intended to run liquid cooled intercoolers. This was a point of contention before among others. The big change should be the MGU-H and combustion related components. I assume moving forward the MGU-H will be a 100% spec Honda unit. It will be interesting to see how TR and Honda work together over the winter to maximize the performance of each other's products.
Would this be your spec 4.0 PU or evolution of "too many cooks" current concept?

Snorked
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Snorked » Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:17 pm

Honda have released photos of the engine

Image
Image
Image

https://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2017/12/03/ ... -ra617h-6/

roon
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by roon » Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:57 pm

Thanks, Snorked. Many cast components evident: heads, block, compressor housing. Merc seems to use milled versions of all these. Emulation of the Merc layout was only a piece of the puzzle it seems. The devil remains in the details.

The connection between the post-filter intake and the electronics box atop the intake manifold--is this an intake sensor (pressure, flow, temp), or a cooling channel? If the latter, would air flow into it from remaining ram-air pressure post-filter or out from it due to low pressure pre-compressor?

Why hide the clutch?

VGT inside the runner collector seems likely given its shape. Permitting linear movement within its length. Nested between the three runners at the center of the aluminum collector plate (annotated image below) is a telltale linear hydraulic actuator body, anodized green and similar in size and design to their wastegate and BOV actuators. Total travel of the runners within would depend on telescope ratio. If 2:1, then travel equivalent to one bore-to-bore distance. 90mm or thereabouts. But it could be more (3:1, 4:1?) depending on how many concentric 'sleeves' the telescope has. Depends also on actuator and runner design. Elastic or baffled materials could be stretched to more extreme ratios, up to ~180mm within the volume shown, although the actuator looks sized for smaller travel.


Image

PlatinumZealot
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by PlatinumZealot » Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:02 am

The little silver pipe after the air filter is a blow-off valve return. They relocated it for 2017.
The green actuators, could be motors with a power-screw drive. The VLI setup is very similar to Mercedes too.
"The true champions are also great men. They are capable of making difficult decisions, of admitting their mistakes and of pushing harder than before when they get up from a fall."

- Ferrari chairman Sergio Marchionne

roon
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by roon » Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:36 am

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:02 am
The green actuators, could be motors with a power-screw drive.
I doubt they are electric, but your post makes me think that if the actuator is rotary rather than linear, it could be rotating a threaded control rod rather than simply push-pulling the intake stacks into positions. As such, travel within the manifold would not relate to the length of the actuator body visible in the photo.

Wazari
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Wazari » Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:21 am

j.yank wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:57 pm

Would this be your spec 4.0 PU or evolution of "too many cooks" current concept?
To the best of my knowledge is that it would be evolution of current layout, not concept, which would contain approximately 80-90% components and concept of "Spec 4.XXX" plus updates.
If you can make the opposition flinch, you have already won.

Dimi
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Dimi » Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:15 am

roon wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:57 pm
The connection between the post-filter intake and the electronics box atop the intake manifold--is this an intake sensor (pressure, flow, temp), or a cooling channel?
That "Honda" box looks more like a part of the crankcase ventilation system.No??

Andres125sx
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Andres125sx » Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:41 am

Wazari wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:02 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:03 pm
There's nothing to suggest Mercedes won't take another clear step forward. This is a 5 year project, Honda is just entering year 4. The power unit evolves by the hands of humans, thus it is imbued with certain lifelike qualities, much like humans go through a big change after adolescence after a long slow period of development, so too will this power unit go though a significant step forward. No hope involved, just understanding how things evolve, Honda will surprise people next year, and if TR is allowed to develop the chassis they will be strong.
Nice post. All manufacturers will take a step forward, that's obvious. However there is a law of diminishing returns. Mercedes' gains should be incrementally smaller.
When? In 2020?

Next will be 5th season of a completely new ruleset with extremelly complex PUs, so I sincerely don´t expect Mercedes to reach the diminishing return point yet. Well, it depends on how do you define diminishing return point but you just need to look at manufacturers learning curve to notice all of them are still improving significantly. Not as much as 2nd or 3th season obviously, but still significant improvements.

Look at Renault, still learning how to build a proper PU with decent reliability when they´re in this era since the beginning, that´s showing how far they´re from the diminishing return point IMHO

HPD
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by HPD » Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:51 am

Andres125sx wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:41 am
Wazari wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:02 pm
Nice post. All manufacturers will take a step forward, that's obvious. However there is a law of diminishing returns. Mercedes' gains should be incrementally smaller.
When? In 2020?
Not as much as 2nd or 3th season obviously, but still significant improvements.
You just answered yourself.
2017 was the first season of this new engine concept.

Wazari wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:21 am
To the best of my knowledge is that it would be evolution of current layout, not concept, which would contain approximately 80-90% components and concept of "Spec 4.XXX" plus updates.
Wazari, now that the season is over. Can you give us some figures about the difference in performance of the current 3.8 and 4.0 specifications?
Hasegawa always wanted to introduce the 4.0 in 2017, and "catch" Renault.

PlatinumZealot
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by PlatinumZealot » Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:59 pm

roon wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:36 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:02 am
The green actuators, could be motors with a power-screw drive.
I doubt they are electric, but your post makes me think that if the actuator is rotary rather than linear, it could be rotating a threaded control rod rather than simply push-pulling the intake stacks into positions. As such, travel within the manifold would not relate to the length of the actuator body visible in the photo.
That is what a power screw is.
"The true champions are also great men. They are capable of making difficult decisions, of admitting their mistakes and of pushing harder than before when they get up from a fall."

- Ferrari chairman Sergio Marchionne

Andres125sx
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Andres125sx » Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:32 pm

HPD wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:51 am
Andres125sx wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:41 am
Wazari wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:02 pm
Nice post. All manufacturers will take a step forward, that's obvious. However there is a law of diminishing returns. Mercedes' gains should be incrementally smaller.
When? In 2020?
Not as much as 2nd or 3th season obviously, but still significant improvements.
You just answered yourself.
2017 was the first season of this new engine concept.
But not the first season of the project, so don´t try to show it as if Honda is on their first season while Mercedes is on their 5th, it´s 4th vs 5th, or 4th vs 6th if you want, assuming Mercedes started much earlier than first season of these ruleset, but even so the difference is not that dramatic :wink:

GhostF1
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by GhostF1 » Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:57 pm

Andres125sx wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:32 pm
HPD wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:51 am
Andres125sx wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:41 am

When? In 2020?
Not as much as 2nd or 3th season obviously, but still significant improvements.
You just answered yourself.
2017 was the first season of this new engine concept.
But not the first season of the project, so don´t try to show it as if Honda is on their first season while Mercedes is on their 5th, it´s 4th vs 5th, or 4th vs 6th if you want, assuming Mercedes started much earlier than first season of these ruleset, but even so the difference is not that dramatic :wink:
No one is saying that, but what is a fact is that 2017 was the first year with this layout/concept.
What the last 3 years have given Honda is experience in F1 racing again. So in that respect, yes they will be entering their 4th active year.
Engine wise. And on track development. Realistically 2018 will be year 2

dren
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by dren » Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:20 pm

GhostF1 wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:57 pm
No one is saying that, but what is a fact is that 2017 was the first year with this layout/concept.
What the last 3 years have given Honda is experience in F1 racing again. So in that respect, yes they will be entering their 4th active year.
Engine wise. And on track development. Realistically 2018 will be year 2
I understand this argument being used for reliability concerns since Mercedes stated it took them awhile to get the split turbo concept working, but for performance, Honda has had 3 years.

It took the bulk of the season to sort out the MGUH bearing failures.
Honda!

GhostF1
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by GhostF1 » Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:32 pm

dren wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:20 pm
GhostF1 wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:57 pm
No one is saying that, but what is a fact is that 2017 was the first year with this layout/concept.
What the last 3 years have given Honda is experience in F1 racing again. So in that respect, yes they will be entering their 4th active year.
Engine wise. And on track development. Realistically 2018 will be year 2
I understand this argument being used for reliability concerns since Mercedes stated it took them awhile to get the split turbo concept working, but for performance, Honda has had 3 years.

It took the bulk of the season to sort out the MGUH bearing failures.
I agree but notice how the main issue that plagued the PU in the past year was pretty much focused solely on the MGU-H shaft?

Guess what was brand new in concept and design for this year...

It's obvious they were having first year experience growing pains with that part.

Brake Horse Power
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Brake Horse Power » Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:51 pm

Casted parts also to reduce vibrations?