During an F1 weekend, the quali laps, first race lap, and one lap each side of a pitstop are the only ones where you actually need everything the car has in outright speed, unless you're fighting for track position or overtaking. At all other times, you're managing things like temperatures, tyres and running as energy-efficient a lap as you can to keep the fuel load low.dren wrote: ↑03 Jan 2018, 17:46It's just a way to send to the ES more energy from the K than the direct allowed 2MJ/lap. It's basically electric fuel accumulation as TC stated earlier.
It's a novel idea, but you're forced to carry more fuel in order to accumulate it electrically. I wonder if Mercedes does this since it's fuel load is a bit lower than the rest.
This is just a means to accumulate fuel since the flow is restricted. Total efficiency will be less.godlameroso wrote: ↑03 Jan 2018, 18:30Like I've been saying the better the combustion process the easier it is to make that compromise. And besides you gotta spend power to make power, or is that money? I forget.
Jokes aside a turbo is basically stealing engine power but ultimately it results in a net gain as far as power and efficiency is concerned. So too with the ERS, it's stealing engine power but the result is a net gain, and since it's electrical there are fewer losses, and the power can be shuffled as needed to ensure this is ultimately a net gain. The turbo is intimately important to that combustion process, as is the ICE, and both can be electrically modulated, +/-200nm for the K, and who knows what for the H. So you can make sure there's always plenty of energy for the turbo regardless of engine RPM. Be more diesel like at low loads and rpm, more race car like at higher loads and rpms.
It would be how you excite the rotor?etusch wrote: ↑03 Jan 2018, 19:36I don't want to make a crack on discussion but there is something I wonder about how mgu-k works . K generating energy at braking and this process generally starts from higher rev and higher speed towards lower once . Is the K motor in completely non spinning situation before the braking and suddenly starting to spin as generator when brake applied ? Or before this process something make it start spinning for smooth start of its generating mission?
Ok hold on... highlighted it for you. look at the yellow high frequency section of the MGUH graph. rapid switching generation/motoring of the MGUH. note the yellow represents extra harvest.gruntguru wrote: ↑03 Jan 2018, 07:14Interesting though that apart from braking the K is almost always motoring at maximum. I didn't think they had that much energy available.???
Also the H has an almost flat line when generating. It looks as if it has an electric limit lower than the surplus turbine power available.
Hi all, this is my first post here. I've been lurking for a while and reading some of the fascinating insights but I thought I could contribute a bit with this article. Having seen the blog with these excerpts I ordered the magazine through Amazon.co.jp and got it earlier this week.hasika wrote: ↑29 Dec 2017, 09:30Just part of the artcle.
·Because its a racing engine,so the weight and centre of gravity is very important.The RA617H is good in this area.As the reliability improves during the season,the weight increased too.From this point,The RA616H is too heavy and didnt meet ours target .
·The compressor and turbine was in the V bank in RA616H,but the RA617H put the compressor and turbine out of the V,and only MGU-H in the V bank.We can make the compressor bigger and it give us more freedom to design the intake system.With both compressor,turbine and MGU-H in the V bank in RA616H,its hard to place the VIS.But only MGU-H in the V bank in the RA617H,so we can make it simple.The intake system was what it should be in 2017.
·But to get the compressor and turbine out of the V,we found some new problems.To avoid the contact with compressor,we had to design a complex shape for the oil tank.The design it not good enough,the oil will go into the intake.And finally leads to the MGU-H issues.The shape of oil tank and compressor caused the MGU-H issues.
·The RA617H has the Jet Ignition technology as the other three manufacturer.The compression ratio of RA617H incresed 2 higher than RA615H,and 1 higher than RA616H.Its also the reason why we put the compressor out of the V and make it bigger.But how can we keep the A/F in the pre-chamber and still have higher homozygosity(i dont know much about technology things so i dont know how to translate the word 均質性,) in the main combustion chamber. We tried many palces to put injectors in,but we think the layout now is the best.
·The RA617H has less power than RA616H final SPEC at the start of the season,before we introdued the first upgrade.So its a minus start for sure,but the final SPEC has much more power than RA616H. I think we finally started to understand the Jet Ignition technology and we will do more things in the area from now.
·As the rules set the MGU-K can only send 2MJ to ES and the MGU-K can release 4MJ as most in a lap.But there is no limitation for the MGU-H.So we tried extraharvest technology.First,we harvest more energy from the MGU-K,more than 2MJ,then we send 2MJ to the ES from the MGU-K,the rest of the energy will be sent to the ES thourgh MGU-H.As we had many reliability issues with MGU-H this season,so we didnt find good timing to introduce it.We finally tested it in the Belgium GP and we begin to introduce the technology from Monza.
Yesdren wrote: ↑03 Jan 2018, 19:55It would be how you excite the rotor?etusch wrote: ↑03 Jan 2018, 19:36I don't want to make a crack on discussion but there is something I wonder about how mgu-k works . K generating energy at braking and this process generally starts from higher rev and higher speed towards lower once . Is the K motor in completely non spinning situation before the braking and suddenly starting to spin as generator when brake applied ? Or before this process something make it start spinning for smooth start of its generating mission?
The K is only capable of delivering 120kW.Brake Horse Power wrote: ↑03 Jan 2018, 23:23With this MGU-K to MGU-H routing it would mean that an extra 150?kw of braking energy is introduced, bit with a frequency of let's say 40Hz. 40 pulses of braking a second going through the tires.. I can remember big-bang moto-gp engines had sometimes troubles getting rear wheel traction due to the strong pulsation effect...
Could the MGU routing cause similar traction issues? And could it therefor be possible that before the 2 mJ is reached of direct MGU-K to ES routing, the alternative MGU-H routing is activated? This way you can maintain an almost constant braking power, reducing brake pulsation in the tires and improving grip..
Without a scale, who knows. The rules don't place a limit on the rate from H to ES, so in order for that timeslice to be as short as possible, it can be more powerful than the K if you want. The only restriction is engineering/packaging.Tommy Cookers wrote: ↑03 Jan 2018, 23:41so they're charging the ES in pulses at 240 kW (or more as you advocate) ?
My point is this. Why have the 4 MJ and 2 MJ limits on K transfers then allow those limits to be breached by sending the energy - to the same place - by a different route? If this is happening and the FIA knows about it (and they would because it would be obvious in the data) they would ban it! It is a device/strategy designed purely to circumvent a rule. It isn't happening IMO.Craigy wrote: ↑03 Jan 2018, 16:13The ES doesn't need to transfer >4MJ from the ES to the K directly in order for this to be viable. The direct route from ES to K is max 4MJ per regulation and I am not suggesting it needs to be breached.gruntguru wrote: ↑03 Jan 2018, 05:40... I still don't buy it. The rules don't allow energy (beyond 4 MJ/lap) to be transferred from the ES to the 'K and this is nothing but a loophole which the FIA would close in a heartbeat once discovered. The unusual energy flow would be obvious in data reviewed by officials.
So long as the ES SoC doesn't go below a nominal 0 or above a maximum 4MJ,
The ES can transfer any amount of energy you like to the H, at any rate.
The H can transfer any amount of energy you like to the K, at any rate (though the K can only "consume" energy at 120kW).
The suggestion is that this ES to H transfer, then H to K transfer is interleaved, and the switch is done many times per second, and that it's also a reversible process (that is to say the K can charge up the ES using the H as a go-between).
The "unusual energy flow" is legal according to my reading of the rules. What rule would it breach, according to your reading of the rules?
So, the bold bit can be read two ways, I guess we could label them Craigy or gruntguru. I can't decide, but at least we're back on-topic...hasika wrote: ↑29 Dec 2017, 09:30
·...As the rules set the MGU-K can only send 2MJ to ES and the MGU-K can release 4MJ as most in a lap.But there is no limitation for the MGU-H.So we tried extraharvest technology.First,we harvest more energy from the MGU-K,more than 2MJ,then we send 2MJ to the ES from the MGU-K,the rest of the energy will be sent to the ES thourgh MGU-H.As we had many reliability issues with MGU-H this season,so we didnt find good timing to introduce it.We finally tested it in the Belgium GP and we begin to introduce the technology from Monza.
My guess is this has been known since the regulations were drafted. And were written that way on purpose, they could have so easily closed this "loophole" with a few words. The fact they haven't in 4 years and the fact Honda admits they're doing it should not leave any doubt. Unless Mercedes is somehow getting some ridiculous numbers from the turbine, I don't see any other way.gruntguru wrote: ↑04 Jan 2018, 03:27My point is this. Why have the 4 MJ and 2 MJ limits on K transfers then allow those limits to be breached by sending the energy - to the same place - by a different route? If this is happening and the FIA knows about it (and they would because it would be obvious in the data) they would ban it! It is a device/strategy designed purely to circumvent a rule. It isn't happening IMO.Craigy wrote: ↑03 Jan 2018, 16:13The ES doesn't need to transfer >4MJ from the ES to the K directly in order for this to be viable. The direct route from ES to K is max 4MJ per regulation and I am not suggesting it needs to be breached.gruntguru wrote: ↑03 Jan 2018, 05:40... I still don't buy it. The rules don't allow energy (beyond 4 MJ/lap) to be transferred from the ES to the 'K and this is nothing but a loophole which the FIA would close in a heartbeat once discovered. The unusual energy flow would be obvious in data reviewed by officials.
So long as the ES SoC doesn't go below a nominal 0 or above a maximum 4MJ,
The ES can transfer any amount of energy you like to the H, at any rate.
The H can transfer any amount of energy you like to the K, at any rate (though the K can only "consume" energy at 120kW).
The suggestion is that this ES to H transfer, then H to K transfer is interleaved, and the switch is done many times per second, and that it's also a reversible process (that is to say the K can charge up the ES using the H as a go-between).
The "unusual energy flow" is legal according to my reading of the rules. What rule would it breach, according to your reading of the rules?