Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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MtthsMlw
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

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AMuS:
According to this, more than the permitted four megajoules of energy per round are being fed into the system from the battery. This is achieved by bypassing the measuring sensor, manipulating the electrical resistance in the wires and via two outputs from the battery. If this were the case, experts believe that this would add 20 hp in the qualification rounds in the short term. A maximum output of 120 kilowatts (163 hp) from the energy store is permitted.

The alleged trickery is so complicated that the FIA technicians find it difficult to understand it. Which makes it difficult to prove a violation of the rules. After checks in Baku, a report was prepared, which is still secret for the time being. Samples in Barcelona did not reveal anything conspicuous.

gargour87
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

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MtthsMlw wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 11:01 am
AMuS:
According to this, more than the permitted four megajoules of energy per round are being fed into the system from the battery. This is achieved by bypassing the measuring sensor, manipulating the electrical resistance in the wires and via two outputs from the battery. If this were the case, experts believe that this would add 20 hp in the qualification rounds in the short term. A maximum output of 120 kilowatts (163 hp) from the energy store is permitted.

The alleged trickery is so complicated that the FIA technicians find it difficult to understand it. Which makes it difficult to prove a violation of the rules. After checks in Baku, a report was prepared, which is still secret for the time being. Samples in Barcelona did not reveal anything conspicuous.
1- How can an outsider know about these details?
2- Why are teams trying to prove Ferrari Car/Engine illegal?
3- If there are grey areas in the rules, teams should benefit from them. that's why there are paying millions of dollars on smart engineers.

LM10
LM10
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

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gargour87 wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 12:10 pm
MtthsMlw wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 11:01 am
AMuS:
According to this, more than the permitted four megajoules of energy per round are being fed into the system from the battery. This is achieved by bypassing the measuring sensor, manipulating the electrical resistance in the wires and via two outputs from the battery. If this were the case, experts believe that this would add 20 hp in the qualification rounds in the short term. A maximum output of 120 kilowatts (163 hp) from the energy store is permitted.

The alleged trickery is so complicated that the FIA technicians find it difficult to understand it. Which makes it difficult to prove a violation of the rules. After checks in Baku, a report was prepared, which is still secret for the time being. Samples in Barcelona did not reveal anything conspicuous.
1- How can an outsider know about these details?
2- Why are teams trying to prove Ferrari Car/Engine illegal?
3- If there are grey areas in the rules, teams should benefit from them. that's why there are paying millions of dollars on smart engineers.
1 - I also always ask this to myself.
2 - Because they are slower.
3 - Exactly, grey area = not illegal.

djones
djones
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

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1- How can an outsider know about these details?

Probably because a member of staff left Ferrari engine department and went to Mercedes.

2- Why are teams trying to prove Ferrari Car/Engine illegal?

Because it is an unfair advantage and if you were a competitor you would do exactly the same thing.

3- If there are grey areas in the rules, teams should benefit from them. that's why there are paying millions of dollars on smart engineers.

And they do benefit, until its found out.


Mercedes have had this with fundamental things like their suspension, Red Bull too with aero stuff, it is not just Ferrari.

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FrukostScones
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

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LM10 wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 12:15 pm
gargour87 wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 12:10 pm
MtthsMlw wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 11:01 am
AMuS:
1- How can an outsider know about these details?
2- Why are teams trying to prove Ferrari Car/Engine illegal?
3- If there are grey areas in the rules, teams should benefit from them. that's why there are paying millions of dollars on smart engineers.
1 - I also always ask this to myself.
2 - Because they are slower.
3 - Exactly, grey area = not illegal.
If they bypass the FIA battery sensor to get more joule into the system then allowed that would be blatantly cheating.
If the use a seperate oil circuit for the turbo then this would be seriously be bending the rules (like taking the piss) and in th eend it would be cheating by getting irregular oil into combustion.
Only thing is energy cheating has not been proven (yet?), a seperate oil circuit for the turbo hasn't been found by FIA, nor has there been irregularities with oil consumption.
Last edited by FrukostScones on Tue May 15, 2018 12:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Finishing races is important, but racing is more important.

gargour87
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

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djones wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 12:29 pm
1- How can an outsider know about these details?

Probably because a member of staff left Ferrari engine department and went to Mercedes.

2- Why are teams trying to prove Ferrari Car/Engine illegal?

Because it is an unfair advantage and if you were a competitor you would do exactly the same thing.

3- If there are grey areas in the rules, teams should benefit from them. that's why there are paying millions of dollars on smart engineers.

And they do benefit, until its found out.


Mercedes have had this with fundamental things like their suspension, Red Bull too with aero stuff, it is not just Ferrari.
1- Ferrari engine department guy left last year when Ferrari had worse engine thank Mercedes
2- Mercedes dominated with their engine for 4 years and I don't remember a single team complained that Mercedes engine is illegal. all team confessed that Mercedes did better job than them.

LM10
LM10
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

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djones wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 12:29 pm
1- How can an outsider know about these details?

Probably because a member of staff left Ferrari engine department and went to Mercedes.

2- Why are teams trying to prove Ferrari Car/Engine illegal?

Because it is an unfair advantage and if you were a competitor you would do exactly the same thing.

3- If there are grey areas in the rules, teams should benefit from them. that's why there are paying millions of dollars on smart engineers.

And they do benefit, until its found out.


Mercedes have had this with fundamental things like their suspension, Red Bull too with aero stuff, it is not just Ferrari.
The suspension was not a grey area. It simply was illegal to benefit from suspension in terms of aero. And that's what Mercedes was doing.

djones
djones
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

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But it is also not legal to use more than 4MJ. So it's a pretty fair comparison.

PhillipM
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

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LM10 wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 12:34 pm
The suspension was not a grey area. It simply was illegal to benefit from suspension in terms of aero. And that's what Mercedes was doing.
How can it not be a grey area? ALL of the suspension on the car's is setup to benefit the aero.

iichel
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

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Let's keep it focused on the technical aspects of the Ferrari PU, its software, hardware and its functions :D

bill shoe
bill shoe
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

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The "extra 20 hp of electricity" leaks must be coming from one of these-
1. source within Ferrari team (purpose is to damage team for personal gain/promotion within team, or purpose is to help team by misleading press/public/other teams from some other issue)
2. source within powertrain customers Haas or Sauber (concern about their team's legality?)
3. source within FIA (want to portray themselves as being aware and in control in case it later turns out to be violation).
4. competitor team with non-Ferrari engine must have concluded from GPS data that Ferrari may be doing something illegal and are feeding rumors to press to get eventual real action.
5. press made it up or speculated.

The FIA has decided to allow the clever high-frequency power-pulsing between electrical components, this allows power units to bypass the nominal rules limitations on power transfer. This leads to very complicated electrical controls, and thus great difficulty for the FIA to determine if there is a violation that goes beyond the legal complex pulsing/flows.

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Big Tea
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

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bill shoe wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 1:53 pm
The "extra 20 hp of electricity" leaks must be coming from one of these-
1. source within Ferrari team (purpose is to damage team for personal gain/promotion within team, or purpose is to help team by misleading press/public/other teams from some other issue)
2. source within powertrain customers Haas or Sauber (concern about their team's legality?)
3. source within FIA (want to portray themselves as being aware and in control in case it later turns out to be violation).
4. competitor team with non-Ferrari engine must have concluded from GPS data that Ferrari may be doing something illegal and are feeding rumors to press to get eventual real action.
5. press made it up or speculated.

The FIA has decided to allow the clever high-frequency power-pulsing between electrical components, this allows power units to bypass the nominal rules limitations on power transfer. This leads to very complicated electrical controls, and thus great difficulty for the FIA to determine if there is a violation that goes beyond the legal complex pulsing/flows.
There is also the (admittedly slight) possibility that it is to distract attention form some other 'issue'
One test is worth a thousand expert opinions

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Phil
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

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bill shoe wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 1:53 pm
4. competitor team with non-Ferrari engine must have concluded from GPS data that Ferrari may be doing something illegal and are feeding rumors to press to get eventual real action.
It's always the same. Most teams are not stupid. Mercedes clearly isn't. If suddenly Ferrari seem to have a better power-unit, you can bet they will have their engineers working overtime trying to figure out where their competitor was able to gain a sizeable advantage. I bet they have a pretty good estimate which areas could be exploited for such an advantage. Obviously, they don't know exactly what Ferrari are doing, so the best way to proceed is to ask the FIA to clarify as in "hey, would it be legal if we were to do this and that, we think Ferrari are already doing it.".

If you throw around mud or at least in the right areas, some of it will eventually stick. Just look at how long teams were looking for loopholes RedBull was using to gain an advantage until finally revealing the cold blowing. Or with Mercedes/Ferrari and oil burning. Or the suspension trickery.
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Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

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FrukostScones wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 12:33 pm


If they bypass the FIA battery sensor to get more joule into the system then allowed that would be blatantly cheating.
Exactly. For those that don't see why this is a "bad thing" to do, think about the fuel flow sensor. If Mercedes was bypassing the fuel sensor with an extra pipe somewhere, would this be cheating? Yes, of course it would be. This is the same thing.
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djones
djones
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

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For the record - Mercedes were never found to be oil burning. Only Ferrari had the extra oil tank :wink: