2018 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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saviour stivala
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Re: 2018 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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Phil wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 3:54 pm
I know some of this is bound to be discussed in more detail in the Ferrari engine thread, but I thought I'd post it here with my own translation as well, as the topic will surely expand beyond just the technical discussion.

From the article AMuS / Protest gegen Ferrari in Monaco?

AMuS wrote:Ferrari steht im Verdacht, beim Antrieb in Grauzonen zu wildern oder sogar einen Schritt weiter gegangen zu sein. Ein Trick im Bereich der Batterie soll kurzfristig 20 PS extra bringen. Die Konkurrenz fordert bis zum GP Monaco Klarheit. Sonst droht sie mit einem Protest.
Translated: Ferrari is under suspicion of using grey-zones or even going too far with its power-train. A trick with the battery is said to bring a short 20hp boost. Other teams are demanding clarification until the Monaco GP or will threaten to protest [against Ferari].

AMuS wrote:Ferrari entwickelt am Limit und bewegt sich in den Grauzonen des Reglements. Manchmal sogar darüber, unterstellen die Gegner. Die FIA hat in den letzten zwei Wochen mehrere Punkte am Auto beanstandet, die nicht den Regeln entsprechen oder technische Direktiven zu großzügig interpretieren. So musste Ferrari am vorderen Ende des Unterbodens überstehende vertikale Strömungsausrichter abschneiden. Das Kundenteam HaasF1 auch, was bei der Konkurrenz wieder den Verdacht aufkommen ließ, Ferrari und HaasF1 arbeiten in der Aerodynamik enger zusammen als erlaubt.
Translated: Teams are suspecting that Ferrari is developing at the limit and within certain grey areas of the technical regulations. The FIA has objected to various areas of the car that are either outside the rules or take some of the technical regulations interpretations too liberal. For example Ferrari apparently had to make adjustments to its floor where certain protruding vertical veins (?) needed to be shortened. This also impacted Ferrari's customer team HaasF1, which led to further suspicions from other teams that Ferrari and HaasF1 may be working closer together / sharing data on aerodynamics than what is allowed.

AMuS wrote:Viel ernster ist der Verdacht, Ferrari könnte im Bereich des Antriebs jenseits des Erlaubten tricksen. Da ist von einem separaten Ölkreislauf für den Turbolader die Rede. Das dort verbrauchte Öl soll nicht zu den 0,6 Litern pro 100 Kilometer zählen, weil der Turbolader kein Motor ist. In diesem Fall könnte man von einer Grauzone oder Spitzfindigkeit bei der Definition sprechen. Hier kommt es wie in der Spiegelaffäre darauf an, wie die FIA das Reglement interpretiert. Weil es dann Mercedes, Renault und Honda genauso machen würden. Sämtliche Untersuchungen bei Ferrari in Bezug auf den Ölverbrauch liefen allerdings bislang ins Leere. Die FIA entdeckte weder einen zweiten Ölkreislauf, noch Unregelmäßigkeit beim Ölkonsum.

Viel komplizierter sind Verdachtsmomente, dass Ferrari beim Energiemanagement mogeln könnte. Demnach sollen aus der Batterie mehr als die erlaubten vier Megajoule Energie pro Runde in das System eingespeist werden. Das soll über eine Umgehung des Messsensors, eine Manipulation des elektrischen Widerstandes in den Leitungen und zwei Ausgänge aus der Batterie bewerkstelligt werden. Wäre dies der Fall, würde das nach Meinung von Experten in den Qualifikationsrunden kurzfristig 20 PS mehr bringen. Erlaubt ist eine Abgabe von maximal 120 Kilowatt (163 PS) aus dem Energiespeicher.

Die mutmaßliche Trickserei ist so kompliziert, dass sich die FIA-Techniker schwer tun, sie zu verstehen. Womit es auch schwierig wird, ein Vergehen nachzuweisen. Nach Kontrollen in Baku wurde ein Report erstellt, der vorerst noch geheim ist. Stichproben in Barcelona ergaben nichts Auffälliges. Kann Ferrari zwischen Baku und Barcelona etwas verändert haben? Eher unwahrscheinlich. Die komplette Leistungselektronik ist versiegelt. In Sebastian Vettels Auto ist zwar bereits die zweite Einheit eingebaut, doch das passierte bereits in Bahrain.
Translation: There's a more serious suspicion (allegation) that Ferrari could be going beyond certain regulations within the powertrain. Allegedly, there's a second oil circuit that is feeding the turbo that is not limited by the FIA mandatory 0.6l/100km limit, because the turbo isn't a motor. This could be a greyzone of the written rule and it will be interesting to see how the FIA will decide on it (as they did with the Halo-mirror-winglets) and would force Mercedes, Renault and Honda to follow suit if this loop isn't clarified. It has to be said however that all inspections so far have yielded no definitive answers in regards to Ferrari's oil consumption. The FIA didn't find a second oil circuit nor make any discovery of irregularities with the oil consumption.

A lot more complicated is the suspicion that Ferrari has found a way to use more than the allowed four megajoules from the battery. They apparently achieve this by bypassing the measuring sensor, manipulating the electrical resistance in the wires and with two outputs from the battery. If this is true, experts believe that over a qualifying lap, this could result in a 20hp boost. Allowed would only be 120KW (163hp).

The trickery is so complicated, that FIA technicians are having trouble understanding it. Because of that, it's also difficult to prove/say either way if it is illegal or not. After examinations in Baku there was a report, but that is still confidential. Random inspections at Barcelona didn't show anything suspicious. It raises the question if Ferrari changed anything between Baku and Barcelona? This may be less unlikely though, as this is all part of the electronics that is sealed. Vettel is already on the second unit, but that was changed in Bahrain.


The article goes on to suggest that Ferrari has been very cooperative as of late in regards to varies suggested rule changes for 2019, even changes that would not benefit them. Officially, they are stating "for the benefit of the sport and the show". Some teams are apparently worried that if Ferrari is found guilty of going too far with some of the alleged trickery, that they could be let off easily.

Meanwhile, Mercedes wants clarification until the Monaco GP. If there isn't any, it is suggested there will be a formal protest.


----

I am posting this in here, hopefully not to provoke any of the usual bickering, but because the article is in German (and some of you don't speak it) and if any of this happens to be accurate, could lead to perhaps a shift in performance, perhaps similar to last year after Canada when the second oil tank within the Ferrari was discovered and suddenly Ferrari lost some of its edge. It will surely be interesting to see how this develops and perhaps some of the above may also be part of the reason why Ferrari was quite a bit off pace in Barcelona during the race, compared to the previous 3 races?
I will give you 10 out of ten for good budgerigar-rigarding.

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MtthsMlw
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Re: 2018 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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Kimi got his second and last CE. Have they detected an issue with the first one just like on Vettel's car or is this according to their plan?

Image

lio007
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Re: 2018 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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ok, that's interesting, Resta leaves Ferrari:
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/chie ... 42632/?s=1

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Thunder
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Re: 2018 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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... and Joins their B-Team as TD.
turbof1 wrote: YOU SHALL NOT......STALLLLL!!!
#aerogollum

Sevach
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Re: 2018 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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Thunder wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 11:16 am
... and Joins their B-Team as TD.
That's the crazy/weird part.

Kormidlo
Kormidlo
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Re: 2018 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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Do you think Ferrari doing this to achieve some loophole in the rules for time and volume of data in aerodinamyc tunel, or CFD? Can be Resta "solger" sent to do the "job" ? Maybe for next year car with aerodynamic rule changes?

zokipirlo
zokipirlo
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Re: 2018 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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Kormidlo wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 9:29 am
Do you think Ferrari doing this to achieve some loophole in the rules for time and volume of data in aerodinamyc tunel, or CFD? Can be Resta "solger" sent to do the "job" ? Maybe for next year car with aerodynamic rule changes?
Or they just don't want that Mercedes steal him too :D

CriXus
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Re: 2018 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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zokipirlo wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 10:04 am
Kormidlo wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 9:29 am
Do you think Ferrari doing this to achieve some loophole in the rules for time and volume of data in aerodinamyc tunel, or CFD? Can be Resta "solger" sent to do the "job" ? Maybe for next year car with aerodynamic rule changes?
Or they just don't want that Mercedes steal him too :D
Or Marchionne wants more competitive Alfa Romeo.
“The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” - George Bernard Shaw

Raleigh
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Re: 2018 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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CriXus wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 11:28 am
zokipirlo wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 10:04 am
Kormidlo wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 9:29 am
Do you think Ferrari doing this to achieve some loophole in the rules for time and volume of data in aerodinamyc tunel, or CFD? Can be Resta "solger" sent to do the "job" ? Maybe for next year car with aerodynamic rule changes?
Or they just don't want that Mercedes steal him too :D
Or Marchionne wants more competitive Alfa Romeo.
That is the likely point. Resta can bring Sauber inline with the Haas model.
Last edited by Raleigh on Wed May 30, 2018 1:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

Manoah2u
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Re: 2018 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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"I have an offer you can't resist........."
Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools.

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Big Tea
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Re: 2018 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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Manoah2u wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 8:32 pm
"I have an offer you can't resist........."
The Prancing horse's head?
One test is worth a thousand expert opinions

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
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Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:54 am

Re: 2018 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post

saviour stivala wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 9:26 pm
Phil wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 3:54 pm
I know some of this is bound to be discussed in more detail in the Ferrari engine thread, but I thought I'd post it here with my own translation as well, as the topic will surely expand beyond just the technical discussion.

From the article AMuS / Protest gegen Ferrari in Monaco?

AMuS wrote:Ferrari steht im Verdacht, beim Antrieb in Grauzonen zu wildern oder sogar einen Schritt weiter gegangen zu sein. Ein Trick im Bereich der Batterie soll kurzfristig 20 PS extra bringen. Die Konkurrenz fordert bis zum GP Monaco Klarheit. Sonst droht sie mit einem Protest.
Translated: Ferrari is under suspicion of using grey-zones or even going too far with its power-train. A trick with the battery is said to bring a short 20hp boost. Other teams are demanding clarification until the Monaco GP or will threaten to protest [against Ferari].

AMuS wrote:Ferrari entwickelt am Limit und bewegt sich in den Grauzonen des Reglements. Manchmal sogar darüber, unterstellen die Gegner. Die FIA hat in den letzten zwei Wochen mehrere Punkte am Auto beanstandet, die nicht den Regeln entsprechen oder technische Direktiven zu großzügig interpretieren. So musste Ferrari am vorderen Ende des Unterbodens überstehende vertikale Strömungsausrichter abschneiden. Das Kundenteam HaasF1 auch, was bei der Konkurrenz wieder den Verdacht aufkommen ließ, Ferrari und HaasF1 arbeiten in der Aerodynamik enger zusammen als erlaubt.
Translated: Teams are suspecting that Ferrari is developing at the limit and within certain grey areas of the technical regulations. The FIA has objected to various areas of the car that are either outside the rules or take some of the technical regulations interpretations too liberal. For example Ferrari apparently had to make adjustments to its floor where certain protruding vertical veins (?) needed to be shortened. This also impacted Ferrari's customer team HaasF1, which led to further suspicions from other teams that Ferrari and HaasF1 may be working closer together / sharing data on aerodynamics than what is allowed.
You sure deserve 10 out of 10 for budgerigar-ing these opinion fomenters/conspiring/speculations around. But the funny thing now is that Toto Wolff wants the whistle blowers he hires not to be named.
AMuS wrote:Viel ernster ist der Verdacht, Ferrari könnte im Bereich des Antriebs jenseits des Erlaubten tricksen. Da ist von einem separaten Ölkreislauf für den Turbolader die Rede. Das dort verbrauchte Öl soll nicht zu den 0,6 Litern pro 100 Kilometer zählen, weil der Turbolader kein Motor ist. In diesem Fall könnte man von einer Grauzone oder Spitzfindigkeit bei der Definition sprechen. Hier kommt es wie in der Spiegelaffäre darauf an, wie die FIA das Reglement interpretiert. Weil es dann Mercedes, Renault und Honda genauso machen würden. Sämtliche Untersuchungen bei Ferrari in Bezug auf den Ölverbrauch liefen allerdings bislang ins Leere. Die FIA entdeckte weder einen zweiten Ölkreislauf, noch Unregelmäßigkeit beim Ölkonsum.

Viel komplizierter sind Verdachtsmomente, dass Ferrari beim Energiemanagement mogeln könnte. Demnach sollen aus der Batterie mehr als die erlaubten vier Megajoule Energie pro Runde in das System eingespeist werden. Das soll über eine Umgehung des Messsensors, eine Manipulation des elektrischen Widerstandes in den Leitungen und zwei Ausgänge aus der Batterie bewerkstelligt werden. Wäre dies der Fall, würde das nach Meinung von Experten in den Qualifikationsrunden kurzfristig 20 PS mehr bringen. Erlaubt ist eine Abgabe von maximal 120 Kilowatt (163 PS) aus dem Energiespeicher.

Die mutmaßliche Trickserei ist so kompliziert, dass sich die FIA-Techniker schwer tun, sie zu verstehen. Womit es auch schwierig wird, ein Vergehen nachzuweisen. Nach Kontrollen in Baku wurde ein Report erstellt, der vorerst noch geheim ist. Stichproben in Barcelona ergaben nichts Auffälliges. Kann Ferrari zwischen Baku und Barcelona etwas verändert haben? Eher unwahrscheinlich. Die komplette Leistungselektronik ist versiegelt. In Sebastian Vettels Auto ist zwar bereits die zweite Einheit eingebaut, doch das passierte bereits in Bahrain.
Translation: There's a more serious suspicion (allegation) that Ferrari could be going beyond certain regulations within the powertrain. Allegedly, there's a second oil circuit that is feeding the turbo that is not limited by the FIA mandatory 0.6l/100km limit, because the turbo isn't a motor. This could be a greyzone of the written rule and it will be interesting to see how the FIA will decide on it (as they did with the Halo-mirror-winglets) and would force Mercedes, Renault and Honda to follow suit if this loop isn't clarified. It has to be said however that all inspections so far have yielded no definitive answers in regards to Ferrari's oil consumption. The FIA didn't find a second oil circuit nor make any discovery of irregularities with the oil consumption.

A lot more complicated is the suspicion that Ferrari has found a way to use more than the allowed four megajoules from the battery. They apparently achieve this by bypassing the measuring sensor, manipulating the electrical resistance in the wires and with two outputs from the battery. If this is true, experts believe that over a qualifying lap, this could result in a 20hp boost. Allowed would only be 120KW (163hp).

The trickery is so complicated, that FIA technicians are having trouble understanding it. Because of that, it's also difficult to prove/say either way if it is illegal or not. After examinations in Baku there was a report, but that is still confidential. Random inspections at Barcelona didn't show anything suspicious. It raises the question if Ferrari changed anything between Baku and Barcelona? This may be less unlikely though, as this is all part of the electronics that is sealed. Vettel is already on the second unit, but that was changed in Bahrain.


The article goes on to suggest that Ferrari has been very cooperative as of late in regards to varies suggested rule changes for 2019, even changes that would not benefit them. Officially, they are stating "for the benefit of the sport and the show". Some teams are apparently worried that if Ferrari is found guilty of going too far with some of the alleged trickery, that they could be let off easily.

Meanwhile, Mercedes wants clarification until the Monaco GP. If there isn't any, it is suggested there will be a formal protest.


----

I am posting this in here, hopefully not to provoke any of the usual bickering, but because the article is in German (and some of you don't speak it) and if any of this happens to be accurate, could lead to perhaps a shift in performance, perhaps similar to last year after Canada when the second oil tank within the Ferrari was discovered and suddenly Ferrari lost some of its edge. It will surely be interesting to see how this develops and perhaps some of the above may also be part of the reason why Ferrari was quite a bit off pace in Barcelona during the race, compared to the previous 3 races?
I will give you 10 out of ten for good budgerigar-rigarding.

LM10
LM10
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Re: 2018 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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From Motorsport:

Formula 1 race director Charlie Whiting is confident that new software will make it easier for the governing body to monitor Ferrari's ERS system, which has been questioned by rival teams.

The FIA has been looking at the Ferrari ERS and unique twin-battery arrangement since the Azerbaijan GP, and Whiting confirmed after Thursday's running in Monaco that he was now satisfied with it.

Contrary to earlier reports, Whiting says no extra sensors were fitted to the Ferraris in Monaco, and instead the FIA had to pursue a more complicated process to check how the system was operating.

The new software, which will be used from the Canadian GP onwards, will streamline that process and allow the FIA to continue to keep a close watch.

"Via a complex routine we were able to be satisfied that the Ferrari was OK," said Whiting. "But we don't want to have to go through that all the time in order to make sure, so we would rather additional measurements are made.

"What we will have for Canada will be a better system which will help us get things done much, much quicker, because it's taken us a couple of races to get to the bottom of it.

"We want them to put extra monitoring on, but at the moment we're having to do it in a painstaking way. It takes a little longer than we would like. We'll arrive at the same conclusion, I would imagine. In Canada they will be providing a change of software.

"What we're trying to do is to monitor exactly what the differences between the two halves of the battery are. That's the crux of the matter.

"Other systems treat their battery as one. Ferrari, it's one battery, but they treat it as two. That's the fundamental difference, I don't think it's a secret I'm giving away there."

Whiting says it would not be easy to fit sensors.

"It's not simple, because these things, not only are they sealed, because they only have two if them for the season, it's not just a straight matter of plucking a sensor off the shelf, and putting it on. It needs better integration for that.

"I'm not sure when any more additional sensors can be fitted. Probably not until next year, if the truth be known."

He admitted that it had been a complex problem for the FIA to address.

"We really have been trying to get to the point where we are entirely satisfied that the power being delivered to the MGU-K is correct.

"It was difficult to explain exactly what we were seeing, that's what we kept going through with Ferrari, because it's a very complex and totally different system to anybody else's.

"And in much the same way as we do with other bits of the car, we have to understand these things, it just took us a bit longer to understand what was going on.

"Their duty is to satisfy us that the car complies, as you know, but they were finding it hard to satisfy us.

"I think it's wrong to say that Ferrari didn't communicate, because they've been very helpful the whole way.

"It's just been very painstaking and detailed work to try to get to the bottom of how their system works, and hence give us the comfort that we need."

f1316
f1316
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Re: 2018 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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It was mentioned in the race thread that Gazzetta’s reporting a 15-20bhp upgrade for the second PU to be introduced in Canada (presumably only on Seb’s car since Kimi’s taken his second already?) but does anyone have a link for the article, even if I’m Italian?

iulian_florea
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Re: 2018 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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Any news on who will replace Resta at Ferrari?