Silly Season 2018/2019

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

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The thing about arguing whether the likes of Bottas are any good is that you're actually looking at maybe a single percent or less. Bottas is quick, no doubt - he's outqualified Hamilton on occasion and shown bursts of true pace in races. In that regard, he's like Rosberg before him. Rosberg could be lightening fast at times and took poles off Hamilton on many occasions, ran away in races too, at times.

The difference is that the "last percent" guys - the Vettels, Hamiltons, Alonsos, Schumachers (well, Michael) - is that they seem able to find that pace more consistently and can run it for longer than the likes of Bottas, Rosberg et al. Look at Rosberg: he admitted that he basically had to give everything he had, to the exclusion of everything else in his life that season, to beat Hamilton to the title. And then he retired because he knew he couldn't do it again. Heck, even that level of intensity needed a bit of luck in Hamilton's engine failing in Malaysia. That's the reality of taking on the very top tier drivers in F1 - you have to be absolutely on it every time you drive because any gaps, any dropped chances, will be seized upon and taken advantage of without mercy.

Hamilton, Vettel and the like just seem to have that extra "spark" (for want of a better word) that drives them harder for longer. It's not skill - all of the guys are skilful in the extreme - it's just something in their make up. It comes across in many cases as an arrogance, a "I deserve to win everything" attitude that many find distasteful or difficult to comprehend. But it's what sets them apart from the oh-so-nearly guys.

Max and Danny have the raw speed to compete with Vettel and Hamilton over a lap or even a race. Do either have that "spark" that allows them to do it for a full year? That's the interesting thing for me.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

McHonda
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Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

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The biggest problem with Bottas is that Lewis is desperate to keep him. That tells you everything, it's the exact same with Seb and Kimi. They don't worry them in the slightest which leads to dull competition. Even someone like Rosberg with all his failings worried Lewis, never mind a Dan or Alonso.

With drivers available like Dan and Alonso it just makes it seem worse to outsiders. And all the excuses given about Alonso's history precluding him don't stand up to scrutiny when Dan is being blocked from those seats as well.

It's simply Merc/Ferrari being happy enough with a Seb vs Lewis showdown for the next few years and everyone else can go fish. And with them both keeping the best engines away from Red Bull they can effectively own the championship. So with limited seats to the only show in town, 2 of them on the entire grid, then the scrutiny on those who fill those seats becomes greater and if half the drivers in only 4 seats that can win are viewed as not as good as others who could be there then they are going to be rightly called out on it, it's not personal.

There are 4 seats you can win in and only 2 of them are taken by members of what is the generally considered the top 5 drivers. That's going to bring some criticism if they don't deliver top 4 performances, and so it should.

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Big Mangalhit
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Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

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Agree 100%. The top two teams are really happy with their internal dynamics and with the state of F1 right now. But I'm also 100% sad they choose to have this attitude. We need more than a 2 man showdown for the championship

netoperek
netoperek
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Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

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Some silly season news.
Claire Williams stated that they are very happy with Lance Stroll and would like to keep him longer. My personal opinion is that Williams is more after Lawrence Stroll (and his pocket) with that statement, as there has been some discontent with Williams recent form and maybe some soothing claims where made to prevent yet another source of cash from jumping the ship.

TR went after Lando Norris, but McLaren refused

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djos
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Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

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Those bringing up the Hamilton vs Rosberg era forget that while Rosberg wasn't as naturally talented, he was able to compete using extremely well developed technical skills.

While I've never been a fan of his (his old man was much more fun to watch), you had to admire his technical prowess.
"In downforce we trust"

AJI
AJI
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Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

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McHonda wrote:
06 Jun 2018, 15:31
The biggest problem with Bottas is that Lewis is desperate to keep him. That tells you everything, it's the exact same with Seb and Kimi. They don't worry them in the slightest which leads to dull competition. Even someone like Rosberg with all his failings worried Lewis, never mind a Dan or Alonso...
^This.
I wouldn't even mind if Merc and Ferrari openly stated that they both have a clear #1 driver, but both teams insist that their drivers have equal status. Give me a break...
The only way to break this pattern of safety is for RB to become so competitive that every race is a front row lockout, preferably with Honda and RIC and VES in 2019.

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NathanOlder
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Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

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AJI wrote:
06 Jun 2018, 23:30
McHonda wrote:
06 Jun 2018, 15:31
The biggest problem with Bottas is that Lewis is desperate to keep him. That tells you everything, it's the exact same with Seb and Kimi. They don't worry them in the slightest which leads to dull competition. Even someone like Rosberg with all his failings worried Lewis, never mind a Dan or Alonso...
^This.
I wouldn't even mind if Merc and Ferrari openly stated that they both have a clear #1 driver, but both teams insist that their drivers have equal status. Give me a break...
The only way to break this pattern of safety is for RB to become so competitive that every race is a front row lockout, preferably with Honda and RIC and VES in 2019.
So what do Merc need to do differently ? How has Bottas not been treated equally ? Less upgrades ? Told to give places up to Lewis ?
GoLandoGo
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AJI
AJI
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Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

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NathanOlder wrote:
07 Jun 2018, 09:16
AJI wrote:
06 Jun 2018, 23:30
McHonda wrote:
06 Jun 2018, 15:31
The biggest problem with Bottas is that Lewis is desperate to keep him. That tells you everything, it's the exact same with Seb and Kimi. They don't worry them in the slightest which leads to dull competition. Even someone like Rosberg with all his failings worried Lewis, never mind a Dan or Alonso...
^This.
I wouldn't even mind if Merc and Ferrari openly stated that they both have a clear #1 driver, but both teams insist that their drivers have equal status. Give me a break...
The only way to break this pattern of safety is for RB to become so competitive that every race is a front row lockout, preferably with Honda and RIC and VES in 2019.
So what do Merc need to do differently ? How has Bottas not been treated equally ? Less upgrades ? Told to give places up to Lewis ?
You can't half tell you're a Lewis supporter. Not that there's anything wrong with that and I don't mean to be antagonistic, everyone has thier favorite driver, but you have to admit Bottas is no match for Lewis?
So far, the only obvious time this season that anyone has been told to give up a place to Lewis is Ocon in Monaco. If Mercedes can issue extra-team orders they are certainly capable of issuing intra-team orders. 6 races in we have 3 winners from 3 teams. Merc and Ferrari are still the favourites, but 2018 isn't going to be a cakewalk. Team orders are only a few races away...

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NathanOlder
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Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

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AJI wrote:
07 Jun 2018, 10:14
NathanOlder wrote:
07 Jun 2018, 09:16
AJI wrote:
06 Jun 2018, 23:30


^This.
I wouldn't even mind if Merc and Ferrari openly stated that they both have a clear #1 driver, but both teams insist that their drivers have equal status. Give me a break...
The only way to break this pattern of safety is for RB to become so competitive that every race is a front row lockout, preferably with Honda and RIC and VES in 2019.
So what do Merc need to do differently ? How has Bottas not been treated equally ? Less upgrades ? Told to give places up to Lewis ?
You can't half tell you're a Lewis supporter. Not that there's anything wrong with that and I don't mean to be antagonistic, everyone has thier favorite driver, but you have to admit Bottas is no match for Lewis?
So far, the only obvious time this season that anyone has been told to give up a place to Lewis is Ocon in Monaco. If Mercedes can issue extra-team orders they are certainly capable of issuing intra-team orders. 6 races in we have 3 winners from 3 teams. Merc and Ferrari are still the favourites, but 2018 isn't going to be a cakewalk. Team orders are only a few races away...
Oh definitely , Bottas is no match at the moment for Lewis. But that doesn't mean he is treated like a number 2. Bottas does get equal treatment. Are you arguing that he doesnt ? Your previous post was saying that they dont get equal treatment when they 100% do.

And yes, 100% Lewis fan, until Lando arrives. then it will be 50/50 split :wink:
GoLandoGo
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King George has arrived.

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AJI
AJI
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Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

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NathanOlder wrote:
07 Jun 2018, 11:11
...Bottas is no match at the moment for Lewis. But that doesn't mean he is treated like a number 2. Bottas does get equal treatment. Are you arguing that he doesnt ?...
I'm arguing that up until there is a point that the vital decision has to be made there is 'equal treatment', but one microsecond after that Mercedes will back Lewis 100%. There's still a lot of Brawn DNA at Mercedes. I don't disagree with the strategy, but it doesn't mean I have to like it...

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Phil
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Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

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...as any team would. Up until that point, discussing it is absolutely unnecessary. Bottas has equal opportunity, he did have it in all races this year, even in those when he was leading Hamilton. There were no team-orders and no tricks. Arguably on some tracks, he even ended up with a better strategy than Lewis (Baku because he didn't compromize himself and Monaco through luck on the SS).

I also think it's a bit of rubbish to suggest Lewis isn't challenged or that he is "desperate to keep Bottas as a team-mate". The greatest challenge Lewis can and will face is securing a 5th world-title, perhaps go on to win more against Ferrari or other teams. He doesn't need a bigger challenge from his own team(-mate) to push him further.
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netoperek
netoperek
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Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

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Lets not forget, that with Hamilton-Rosberg pairing they had an over a decade long competitive relationship in the background, adding some fuel to the fire. Saying that Lewis is supposedly less motivated (which personally i disagree with) because Valteri isn't pushing him as hard might not be true even in the slightest. Ahyhow, I don't think it's a proper topic for such a debate.

McHonda
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Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

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Phil wrote:
07 Jun 2018, 15:59
...as any team would. Up until that point, discussing it is absolutely unnecessary. Bottas has equal opportunity, he did have it in all races this year, even in those when he was leading Hamilton. There were no team-orders and no tricks. Arguably on some tracks, he even ended up with a better strategy than Lewis (Baku because he didn't compromize himself and Monaco through luck on the SS).

I also think it's a bit of rubbish to suggest Lewis isn't challenged or that he is "desperate to keep Bottas as a team-mate". The greatest challenge Lewis can and will face is securing a 5th world-title, perhaps go on to win more against Ferrari or other teams. He doesn't need a bigger challenge from his own team(-mate) to push him further.
How is it rubbish to suggest he's desperate to keep Bottas? Both Seb and Lewis are very keen to keep Kimi and Bottas respectively, they came out and said they wanted them to stay.

They are both comfortable with them and that only happens when they don't worry them in the slightest so obviously considering there are only 4 seats that can fight for the title, if you're a neutral you're going to want those seats taken up by drivers who can worry the best in those teams as it means 4 in the title fight rather than two.

I don't think it pushing Lewis further is the point, it's just giving more top drivers the chance at winning. As it stands the majority of the top 5 drivers can't fight for the title while 2 drivers not on their level can. That's not good for anyone but Seb and Lewis and their fans so obviously it will put more pressure on the No.2 seats, that's only natural when there's such a limited number of competitive seats.

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

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Seb and Lewis don't decide who sits in the other car, the team does. Most of the time, a team would be happy to have two drivers who each can get more points for the team because equals more money. A good thing. Not so good when the likes of Perez and Ocon take each other out, of course. But when the teams involved are fighting for the WDC (Ferrari and Mercedes) and the WCC (Mercedes because Ferrari don't seem too bothered about the WCC), I makes sense to have drivers that both get big points but aren't likely to trip each other up.

At Mercedes, if Bottas is ahead he gets to keep the place unless Hamilton actually overtakes him. Not sure what the team can do to be fairer.

You have to remember that the teams are in it for the wins and the associated marketing. They're not in it to have their drivers taking each other off.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

zac510
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Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

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Alonso again in the media slagging off F1's predictability. He seems to have totally talked himself out of staying in F1 and keeps reiterating his confirmation bias to the media.

Pretty ironic considering the Toyota he drives at LM this year is basically enshrined in regulation to be the winner.