Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
godlameroso
333
User avatar
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:27 pm
Location: Miami FL

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by godlameroso » Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:19 pm

etusch wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:35 pm
I found this after searching that Apple :P
https://historicmotorsportcentral.com/2 ... -head/amp/
Image
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

PlatinumZealot
344
User avatar
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:45 am

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by PlatinumZealot » Sat Jun 09, 2018 4:25 am

gruntguru wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:47 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:39 am
gruntguru wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:03 am
The ability to create swirl with minimal flow penalty is one advantage. More importantly, the design has more flow potential. The paired valves (eg 2 x inlets), being further separated than a pent-roof design, have less tendency to "shroud" each other. The ideal implementation would have downdraft ports (near the spark plug) which tends to favour flow down the cylinder walls rather than towards the other inlet valve disrupting its flow,
I think there is a scavenging disadvantage. Just visualizing the exhaust escaping to two opposing sides makes my head hurt.
I disagree (unless you are talking about scavenge during overlap). . . and who cares about the efficiency of that flow regime? If you want more scavenge flow just increase the overlap period.
.
Two valves on one side gives more tumble and there are a few videos out there from big car makers that illustrate how modern "trip" and tumble designs have proven to be optimal for direct injection engines. Though interesting i cant see Honda going to such a clumsy and heavy design just for swirl. It would be easier to have two different sizes of intake valves or staggered opening or something.
I think swirl is more effective than tumble (tumble extinguishes rapidly near BDC compared to swirl). Its just that pent roof heads and chambers don't lend themselves to swirl - the tangential component of flow from a single intake valve is cancelled by the second intake valve. The Apfelbeck chamber is almost conical (even close to TDC) and will support swirl at any piston position.
I don't really have a big opinion on it, just that Nissan and Toyota are sporting tumble in all of their big power direct injection engines.

On the exhaust stroke the initial movement of gas may not swirl despite the exhaust valves being tangential. When the intake valves open soon after there will be swirl but it would break up the previous flow into a new regime and increase mixing of exhaust with fresh air compared to the "straight shot" of a normal layout- almost like internal EGR.
"The true champions are also great men. They are capable of making difficult decisions, of admitting their mistakes and of pushing harder than before when they get up from a fall."

- Ferrari chairman Sergio Marchionne

godlameroso
333
User avatar
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:27 pm
Location: Miami FL

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by godlameroso » Sat Jun 09, 2018 5:50 pm

Don't Toyota or whoever create tumble with port geometry? The "ski ramp" is made easier with wider valve angle but not impossible with a narrower angle.

I'm guessing the ideal for the pre-chamber requires some mixture of swirl and tumble, and the timing of either during the piston stroke is critical. And you can tune a lot of this with your valve opening and closing events.

One of the things that makes engines so interesting is that the time scales for each combustion event are tiny, and so many things have to be properly timed to get the most out of it. From the fuel breaking then forming bonds to the pistons and valve train motion, and flame propagation, all of it needs to be precisely timed to the nanosecond.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

roon
437
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2016 6:04 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by roon » Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:47 am

godlameroso wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 5:50 pm
Don't Toyota or whoever create tumble with port geometry? The "ski ramp" is made easier with wider valve angle but not impossible with a narrower angle.

I'm guessing the ideal for the pre-chamber requires some mixture of swirl and tumble, and the timing of either during the piston stroke is critical. And you can tune a lot of this with your valve opening and closing events.

One of the things that makes engines so interesting is that the time scales for each combustion event are tiny, and so many things have to be properly timed to get the most out of it. From the fuel breaking then forming bonds to the pistons and valve train motion, and flame propagation, all of it needs to be precisely timed to the nanosecond.
A nanosecond is a billionth of a second (.000000001). An expansion stroke lasts .01 seconds at 12k RPM. Five degrees before and after TDC would pass in .0018 s.

godlameroso
333
User avatar
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:27 pm
Location: Miami FL

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by godlameroso » Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:10 am

roon wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:47 am
godlameroso wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 5:50 pm
Don't Toyota or whoever create tumble with port geometry? The "ski ramp" is made easier with wider valve angle but not impossible with a narrower angle.

I'm guessing the ideal for the pre-chamber requires some mixture of swirl and tumble, and the timing of either during the piston stroke is critical. And you can tune a lot of this with your valve opening and closing events.

One of the things that makes engines so interesting is that the time scales for each combustion event are tiny, and so many things have to be properly timed to get the most out of it. From the fuel breaking then forming bonds to the pistons and valve train motion, and flame propagation, all of it needs to be precisely timed to the nanosecond.
A nanosecond is a billionth of a second (.000000001). An expansion stroke lasts .01 seconds at 12k RPM. Five degrees before and after TDC would pass in .0018 s.
And what about the bond breaking of the hydrocarbons at the spark gap? The species propagation in the pre-chamber? The EGR after she goes bang? How many sparks in that .0018s, injector pulses?
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

roon
437
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2016 6:04 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by roon » Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:22 am

godlameroso wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:10 am
roon wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:47 am
godlameroso wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 5:50 pm
Don't Toyota or whoever create tumble with port geometry? The "ski ramp" is made easier with wider valve angle but not impossible with a narrower angle.

I'm guessing the ideal for the pre-chamber requires some mixture of swirl and tumble, and the timing of either during the piston stroke is critical. And you can tune a lot of this with your valve opening and closing events.

One of the things that makes engines so interesting is that the time scales for each combustion event are tiny, and so many things have to be properly timed to get the most out of it. From the fuel breaking then forming bonds to the pistons and valve train motion, and flame propagation, all of it needs to be precisely timed to the nanosecond.
A nanosecond is a billionth of a second (.000000001). An expansion stroke lasts .01 seconds at 12k RPM. Five degrees before and after TDC would pass in .0018 s.
And what about the bond breaking of the hydrocarbons at the spark gap? The species propagation in the pre-chamber? The EGR after she goes bang?
What about spin direction of their constituent quarks? What about the topological defects which may have formed during a symmetry breaking phase transition in the early universe? If we don't time these events down to the last femtosecond, we'll never break 50% thermal efficiency.

godlameroso
333
User avatar
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:27 pm
Location: Miami FL

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by godlameroso » Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:24 am

That's the spirit. No seriously the fuel guys are really looking at those time scales. They have the computers and the nerds for it.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

Thunder
Moderator
User avatar
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:50 am
Location: Germany

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Thunder » Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:38 am

Ok this is the last time i move generic Laptime talk and salvage strategies to the General Honda F1 or STR Topic. From now on i will just delete everything off Topic.
turbof1 wrote: YOU SHALL NOT......STALLLLL!!!
#aerogollum

turbof1
Moderator
User avatar
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:36 pm
Location: MountDoom CFD Matrix

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by turbof1 » Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:18 am

Should any off topic chatter happen again, the topic will go into 24h lock down next to deleting the posts.
#AeroFrodo

Nonserviam85
10
Joined: Fri May 17, 2013 10:21 am

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Nonserviam85 » Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:38 pm

godlameroso wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:24 am
That's the spirit. No seriously the fuel guys are really looking at those time scales. They have the computers and the nerds for it.
It is nice for academic purposes but the Law of Diminishing Returns prohibits it for actual applications.

godlameroso
333
User avatar
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:27 pm
Location: Miami FL

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by godlameroso » Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:57 pm

I suppose the fuel chemistry doesn't matter. :roll:
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

Nonserviam85
10
Joined: Fri May 17, 2013 10:21 am

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Nonserviam85 » Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:15 pm

godlameroso wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:57 pm
I suppose the fuel chemistry doesn't matter. :roll:
A lot but not in the nanoseconds realm :)

HPD
339
User avatar
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2016 3:06 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by HPD » Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:40 pm



Albert Fabrega: FIA considers from Evo1 to Evo2 there are no big changes and they follow rules: If it is similar mass, design, inertia and function does not break park. In other words, there is little difference in ICE, TC, MGUH and MGUK. New FIA approach?

Image

Stef
5
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2008 10:25 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Stef » Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:46 pm

But he took a penalty, not sure this rule applies then

Walkman
2
Joined: Sat May 05, 2018 2:23 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Walkman » Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:11 pm

Stef wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:46 pm
But he took a penalty, not sure this rule applies then
Because it was his 4th PU ?