2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

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NL_Fer
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

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I don’t think this car is draggy because they seem to be ok on fuel consumption, a draggy car would use more fuel. Also setup wise the car looks stable, the drivers are not strugling and tyre degradation seems ok too. The is fine on racedays, but somehow they cannot extract the speed needed for qualifying, as if they don’t know how to use the extra grip and low fuel.

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diffuser
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

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PhillipM wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:11 pm
This is F1, aero guys have been telling suspension guys where it's going and like it or lump it for decades.
I DON'T have first hand knowledge, but it doesn't work like that. They would loose more time than they make up. They're gonna look at the pros and cons.

PhillipM
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

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And generally, compromising the suspension for small aero gains has been worth it for a long time.

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diffuser
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

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PhillipM wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:11 pm
And generally, compromising the suspension for small aero gains has been worth it for a long time.
I don't think "Compromising" is the right word there, "Tuning" is better. I understand tuning your suspension to get better aero. Finding ways to make your suspension work more efficiently from an aero perspective but compromising suggests "sabotage". That isn't the same as coming to a compromise.

NL_Fer
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

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How advanced is McLarens hydraulic part of the suspension, compared to the top teams?

I mean after the ban on FRIC, teams have been in persuit of a hydraulic suspension, which is not interconnected, but behaves like it would be. Mercedes, Redbull and Ferrari are very advanced with these systems, which them softer suspension for low-speed grip and more aerodynamic stability at high speed.

Could this be where they lack?

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diffuser
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

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PhillipM wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:28 pm
It's not, they have issues, but they're bringing parts every race, the factory floor guys seem confident it'll be faster in France, even though it's a similar circuit.
circuit map
Image

PhillipM
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

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diffuser wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:27 pm
I don't think "Compromising" is the right word there, "Tuning" is better. I understand tuning your suspension to get better aero. Finding ways to make your suspension work more efficiently from an aero perspective but compromising suggests "sabotage". That isn't the same as coming to a compromise.
It's exactly the same as coming to a compromise, that's why they both use the same word.

It's an aero formula, aero downforce is generally worth 3-4x the normal tyre load, ergo, if you have to make the suspension worse by 25%, but it gains you 10% on the aero side, you'd take it.

Simplifying a lot, but that's exactly what compromising is....

PhillipM
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

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NL_Fer wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:29 pm
How advanced is McLarens hydraulic part of the suspension, compared to the top teams?

I mean after the ban on FRIC, teams have been in persuit of a hydraulic suspension, which is not interconnected, but behaves like it would be. Mercedes, Redbull and Ferrari are very advanced with these systems, which them softer suspension for low-speed grip and more aerodynamic stability at high speed.

Could this be where they lack?
It could be, but unfortunately with these systems you don't generally see much of what they're doing, nobody talks about it bar the internal guys, so we don't find out how good the systems are until years later when they fall into private hands most of the time.
Or we get lucky and they were doing something naughty that the FIA publishes details on when banning it.

makecry
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

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NL_Fer wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:29 pm
How advanced is McLarens hydraulic part of the suspension, compared to the top teams?

I mean after the ban on FRIC, teams have been in persuit of a hydraulic suspension, which is not interconnected, but behaves like it would be. Mercedes, Redbull and Ferrari are very advanced with these systems, which them softer suspension for low-speed grip and more aerodynamic stability at high speed.

Could this be where they lack?
McLaren had the trick suspension that was banned and while this is complete armchair f1 right here from my side but I am sure most of their issues are mechanical and solving them would give them a huge chunk of time. I also feel car peaks early as someone else here mentioned, the peak performance is not as good as other cars and so the quali pace suffers but it performs fine in the race trim, kinda like the f2012.

makecry
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

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diffuser wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:27 pm
PhillipM wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:11 pm
And generally, compromising the suspension for small aero gains has been worth it for a long time.
I don't think "Compromising" is the right word there, "Tuning" is better. I understand tuning your suspension to get better aero. Finding ways to make your suspension work more efficiently from an aero perspective but compromising suggests "sabotage". That isn't the same as coming to a compromise.

I think compromising is a right word. You are letting go of one thing to gain another. That is basically what compromising is. Sabotage implies malice.

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diffuser
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

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makecry wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:08 pm
NL_Fer wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:29 pm
How advanced is McLarens hydraulic part of the suspension, compared to the top teams?

I mean after the ban on FRIC, teams have been in persuit of a hydraulic suspension, which is not interconnected, but behaves like it would be. Mercedes, Redbull and Ferrari are very advanced with these systems, which them softer suspension for low-speed grip and more aerodynamic stability at high speed.

Could this be where they lack?
McLaren had the trick suspension that was banned and while this is complete armchair f1 right here from my side but I am sure most of their issues are mechanical and solving them would give them a huge chunk of time. I also feel car peaks early as someone else here mentioned, the peak performance is not as good as other cars and so the quali pace suffers but it performs fine in the race trim, kinda like the f2012.
I'm right beside you in my own armchair.

I do see the merits of godlamoroso's argument. If you increase the downforce from from the underneath of the car/diffuser to more than make up what you're adding with the rear wing, you can take off that same amount of rear wing. The rear wing has a 35% drag coefficient while the under-car is 15%.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

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PhillipM wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:37 pm
Nothing, but then they might be able to solve their tyre/suspension issues without noticable new parts, larger/more sensitive pistons in the dampers, etc.
And they don't have to worry about not being able to switch the hypersofts on properly for qualifying either.

I only hear bits and pieces so I can't comment on anything bar there's some new BB parts.
The Hopefulls are blaming the suspension for their own comfort. I say Suspension problems are just too easy to solve mathematically for these big teams. You know what is hard to solve mathematically though? Yup. You guessed it. Shoddy aerodynamic correlation!
Hell, blaming it on suspensions is so easy when a Niagara falls of dodgy data chokes the database and things are too advanced to start over. McLaren know they messed up royally. The car was supposed to be within half a second of RedBull remember? Yes we are told (ask stoffel ;-) ) the aero balance is great and all. That means something's working right. But no Mclaren boss is talking about the piss poor downforce to drag ratio. Someone screwed up. Tim Goss took the fall. But he aint the head of aero. Peter Prodromu is. But guess what. Pete is zak's star signing.. Can't fire that guy without losing credibility.
Not driving a Mercedes? Work harder!

techman
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

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i reckong mclaren will be good a paul ricard circuit. it looks like it has quite a few fast corners.

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diffuser
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:20 am
PhillipM wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:37 pm
Nothing, but then they might be able to solve their tyre/suspension issues without noticable new parts, larger/more sensitive pistons in the dampers, etc.
And they don't have to worry about not being able to switch the hypersofts on properly for qualifying either.

I only hear bits and pieces so I can't comment on anything bar there's some new BB parts.
The Hopefulls are blaming the suspension for their own comfort. I say Suspension problems are just too easy to solve mathematically for these big teams. You know what is hard to solve mathematically though? Yup. You guessed it. Shoddy aerodynamic correlation!
Hell, blaming it on suspensions is so easy when a Niagara falls of dodgy data chokes the database and things are too advanced to start over. McLaren know they messed up royally. The car was supposed to be within half a second of RedBull remember? Yes we are told (ask stoffel ;-) ) the aero balance is great and all. That means something's working right. But no Mclaren boss is talking about the piss poor downforce to drag ratio. Someone screwed up. Tim Goss took the fall. But he aint the head of aero. Peter Prodromu is. But guess what. Pete is zak's star signing.. Can't fire that guy without losing credibility.
Who stole PlatinumZealot's handle and who is this impostor?


Wrong again PZ! Pete was signed by none other than Ron Dennis! Zak didn't start till 21 November 2016.


I like the rest though ...

Did Tim get the screws cause he miffed the Suspension or was it the 2 months late on delivery. This is Mclaren, they like delivery not Delissio...That would be McCain's.

techman
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

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if there any postitive in the mclaren car, i would say its braking performance and balance, thats why it doesn't wear out the tyres like other teams. other than that all other really need a lot of work. and regarding mclaren simulations, just forget it, there simulation are useless. we heard a 1 second gain with the switch of engine according to their simulations. :lol: mclaren stil trying to fool the mclaren fans and public. i dont think people in general now believe in their hype but want results