Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Big Mangalhit
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by Big Mangalhit » Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:42 pm

Webber2011 wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:37 pm

What a terribly rude reply to a post that made quite a deal of sense.
You need to get off the "coffee" and calm down a bit

All I saw suggested was that maybe, (as in the past with Red Bull), those from above gave Ferarri a chance to conform BEFORE breaking a rule

Is it not possible that was exactly what happened ?
Seems to be backed up quite well with a precedent ?
Where did you see this suggested? Where was it written that Ferrari was breaking the rules and got a warning to revert it before getting a penalty? Or is it just speculation from you?

What I thought it said was that they were required to change settings back and forth to be scrutinised. This doesn't seem to me like that time mercedes was caught with lower tyre pressure than minimum but had a pass because it was just a little bellow. Seems to me like they were told to change settings while FIA analysed the data like some sort of test that should be done outside race conditions.

I think it is terribly wrong to do it mid race but then again I can understand why they would do it cause maybe they were afraid that the Ferrari was complying with the scrutiny while being in test conditions and then cheating on race conditions, a little bit like the VW emissions scandal.

Muniix
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by Muniix » Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:02 pm

Webber2011 wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:37 pm
JPBD1990 wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:24 pm
bosyber wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:25 am
Yeah, pretty ridiculous that Ferrari have to bother their drivers to change settings so they stay within legal limits everyone else also has to stay within too, and the FIA get the blame for asking them to stick to the rules.

Sure, it might be that the FIA now monitoring them closely makes it imperative that they do this, but make no mistake, it was Ferrari that designed the system such that staying legal during the race requires this extra work from the drivers.

I can accept the "if it isn't tested and caught, it was effectively legal" for now - Red Bull ran more or less all their championship years that way, in my opinion - but, then being caught it is not the fault of the FIA for checking; it is on the team who decide to not change the system to comply when needed but rather take the risk, and in this case rather ask the drivers to do it for them while driving. It might not be possible to change the system w/o redesign, but that's part of the risk Ferrari took to get an apparent advantage before, and again, tough luck.

Remember, at the start of 2014, Red Bull tried something like this with a different interpretation of the fuel-flow calibration - they had Ricciardo disqualified for it, because they effectively kept running ran an out-of-spec. car; being not-within-spec. is a disqualifying error. FIA warning a team (like they did Red Bull during the Australia 2014 GP, and possibly Ferrari during the Canadian 2018 GP weekend) that they are at risk of being disqualified is a kindness FIA does, so the team can make amends and they can keep racing. Ferrari had to ask the drivers to change settings to get there. I'd hope that for the next race they fix the system to make that unnecessary, because it is indeed not great.

Still, they got a solid win, so I think they might also think they made the right choice of not upsetting a working set-up here ...

All in my opinion, of course.
Presumptive and filled with hyperbole and bias. To imply that Vettel was changing settings to remain within legal guidelines is ridiculous. Ferrari repeatedly changed settings, and back, to demonstrate the affect those changes had on data being collected by the FIA. It was to determine their systems legality, not to manipulate it into remaining within the legal guidelines.

I’m not even going to broach whether or not it’s legal as I feel that is wasted on you, but this was testing done by the FIA to determine legality. This was not a manipulation by Ferrari to prevent the discovery of the illegality of their PU. The outcome, at that point, was not determined. It was testing.
What a terribly rude reply to a post that made quite a deal of sense.
You need to get off the "coffee" and calm down a bit

All I saw suggested was that maybe, (as in the past with Red Bull), those from above gave Ferarri a chance to conform BEFORE breaking a rule

Is it not possible that was exactly what happened ?
Seems to be backed up quite well with a precedent ?
Experience in development at the bleeding edge also backs up testing and demonstration in real life scenario as the only real proof of a highly dynamic system.
Showing it to be legal, demonstrating it, proving once and for all to the FIA.

MtthsMlw
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by MtthsMlw » Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:37 pm

Image

roon
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by roon » Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:45 pm

Looks like there's a small oil to water heat exchanger atop the cam cover.

e36jon
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by e36jon » Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:07 pm

Greetings all

I'm late to the party on this thread, so please excuse me if this is all old news (I used 'search' and didn't find anything.).

I have a "F1 Conrods" thread running on the forum, and the first entry is a Ferrari 1.6L rod and piston that I found on a Japanese collectors site. Mudflap visited the thread and was skeptical, but agreed that the proportions seem correct. At any rate it would most likely have been early in the development process. Below is a teaser, and the rest can be found here: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=27372

Image

Cheers,

Jon

PlatinumZealot
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by PlatinumZealot » Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:16 am

So before TJI then.. Interesting.
"The true champions are also great men. They are capable of making difficult decisions, of admitting their mistakes and of pushing harder than before when they get up from a fall."

- Ferrari chairman Sergio Marchionne

e36jon
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by e36jon » Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:21 pm

I don't know about the timing. No definitive date info was given by the folks that had the item listed for sale (It's sold). I haven't gone full sleuth and tried to decipher the various markings on the parts, so it may be right there in front of me...

Mudflap was skeptical because of the aluminum piston since there's been so much talk of Ferrari working on a steel alternative. Is an aluminum piston inherently non-viable with TJI? This one seems to have a ceramic coating applied, for what it's worth.

Is the consensus that TJI would alter the combustion chamber shape? Maybe that's a clue. I was surprised to see that this piston indicates a radial valve layout (Inclined in two planes). Is that especially beneficial for a TJI based system? It seems like a lot of mechanical hassle otherwise...


Apologies for more questions and no answers.

Jon

roon
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by roon » Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:53 pm

e36jon wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:21 pm
I was surprised to see that this piston indicates a radial valve layout (Inclined in two planes).
I got that impression at first, but if you look closely you'll find the valve clearance pockets are paired 'in-plane.' The high lands of the piston face are not radially symmetric.

ANWP
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by ANWP » Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:17 pm

Long time lurker here.

The pictures of the crown of this piston is extremely interesting.

You can see the fuel injector spray pattern as deposits on the crown surface. This indicates 4 or more injection holes in the nozzle and it’s positioned between the two valve cut outs.

Also judging by the size of the valve cut outs the injector is positioned between the exhaust valves.

Very interesting.

Big Tea
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by Big Tea » Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:19 pm

I know my head works in a strange way, but does anyone think it is possible or has at some time happened that an engine builder has 'allowed' some restricted test units to find their way to collectors, and so on to public ( other engine builders ) to get a look at them, and they have been from 'dead end projects'?

All builders have limited resources and a little diversion could be helpful to other teams?
Can I make a 3D printer on my 3D printer?

e36jon
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by e36jon » Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:20 pm

Here are better pics of the crown (Everything I have.). (All credit to the Japanese site that took such great photos: www.italiazakka.co.jp/shop/20949-0-en.html):

Image

Image

You all are seeing things I don't so hopefully these bring more insight.

roon
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by roon » Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:43 am

Would you say Ferrari have been barking up the wrong tree?



It was only at the 4:59 mark that I began to suspect that this man may have been involved in the development of a modern F1 engine, on the combustion side.

roon
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by roon » Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:32 pm

atanatizante wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:09 pm
I don`t know if that`s an old topic or the right thread in order to get some advised answer regarding what Nico Rosberg said about Ferrari have found in their ERS area but I`ll give it a go ...

This is the first part https://streamable.com/hg6gd

And here he elaborates further on: https://streamable.com/vh89e

From my understanding he speaks something about MGU-H, right? We knew that is allowed to have maximum 120kw/160hp for only 33 sec. and that`s 4MJ from which the only 2MJ could be provided from MGU-K. Nowhere said that they aren`t allowed to deploy 159HP for the rest of the time, isn`t it? Just to have the appropriate MGU-H in order to let them have that amount of power … so that`s it? Do they have a better “H”?
4MJ maximum per lap from ES to MGUK.

Unlimited MJ per lap from MGUH to MGUK.

MGUK delivery capped at 120kW/160hp at all times.

What he's implying is that their MGUK can deliver its max output of 120kW/160hp at all times during a lap. Implicit in the suggestion is that other teams can't sustain their MGUK in the same way, either using them less often or at a lower output.

Put more simply:

Ferrari: ICE output + 160hp constant
Other teams: ICE output + 160hp or less, intermittently

His claims about the Ferrari unit operating at a 'higher pressure' could indicate greater mass flow through the engine, implying Ferrari are able to run higher air-fuel ratios and more efficiently operate their compressor and turbine. That's how you could get beyond 4 MJ per lap delivered to the K.

There are no power limits for the MGUH. It could be 500hp for all we know. Correct me if I'm wrong. A greater-than-MGUK-output MGUH combined with sufficient ICE performance could keep the K sustained on its own, without resorting to Honda's ES>H>K type energy flow path.

Making more ICE power seems like it would go hand in hand with designing a bigger H capable of sustaining the K full time. As ICE output increases, max K run time increases. That could be the current development situation and could explain Ferrari's lead. Beyond this HP gains will be from the ICE only. Which might explain the interest in dropping the H in 2020. All the knowledge gained since 2014 will allow continued DI turbo ICE efficiency development, without the complexity, cost, and weight of compounding. Because there was going to be a point where ICE gains were going to surpass the development potential of the as-regulated electrical turbocompounding.

P.S. I can't vouch for the truthfulness of the statements made in the video.
Last edited by roon on Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.

turbof1
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by turbof1 » Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:55 pm

There are also gains in the ES to mgu-h department in there. energy interaction between ES and mu-h is unlimited, meaning if the mgu-h is able to generate more energy, more energy can be dedicated for spooling up the turbo through the mgu-h, on top of a constant mgu-k 160bhp.
#AeroFrodo

Big Tea
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by Big Tea » Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:04 pm

turbof1 wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:55 pm
There are also gains in the ES to mgu-h department in there. energy interaction between ES and mu-h is unlimited, meaning if the mgu-h is able to generate more energy, more energy can be dedicated for spooling up the turbo through the mgu-h, on top of a constant mgu-k 160bhp.
It may be just the way he phrases it , but does he say electricity is generated before the engine?
Is this an extra generator unit in the intake side?
Can I make a 3D printer on my 3D printer?