Why overtaking is dead, and might never come back

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strad
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Re: Why overtaking is dead, and might never come back

Post by strad » Tue Jul 03, 2018 7:51 pm

and the following car has to be able to get on the lead car's ass at the beginning of the straight. Where you have that, you will have passing.
But they can't. Because of the cars aero. They can't follow closely because of the turbulence, much of it purposely made, upsets their stupid, over complex front wings. They are too aero sensitive to follow each other.
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holeindalip
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Re: Why overtaking is dead, and might never come back

Post by holeindalip » Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:47 pm

The cars are too heavy nowadays , a lighter car will require less downforce and the marbles from the pirellis aren’t helping keeping them on a single racing line. Very similar to dirt racing, if only one lane is working it’s just a freight train and no passing

strad
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Re: Why overtaking is dead, and might never come back

Post by strad » Wed Jul 04, 2018 12:18 am

Agreed holeindalip
Dirt track oval racing is a good analogy
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Manoah2u
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Re: Why overtaking is dead, and might never come back

Post by Manoah2u » Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:37 am

Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:50 am
roon wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 6:21 am
Yet, people sign in here and with all the grace of a drooling chimpanzee slap their hands against a computer keyboard, miraculously forming coherent sentences, to complain about a sport they have little comprehension of.
Brilliant! Give that man a prize - the best thing I've read on here in many a moon. =D> =D>
:lol: =D> =D>

why the complaining about supposed lack of overtaking?

Do you guys (he who feels adressed, feel free to feel as such) even watch F1?

Verstappen on Raikkonen, just to name one. how about Alonso's race.
How about Vettel on Hamilton. Daniels regular late-brake-dive-ins.
Just to name a tiny few of last race.

you guys act like there's no overtaking at all, and it's actually the opposite.
Hamilton vs Rosberg was a prime example of 'great battles' on track, and those were 2 identical cars.

All this whining about nothing, just wow.

If any, aero developments have made DRS have a far less impact than it had before, when it was freshly introduced.
DRS caused an 'immense' raise in overtaking. but it's fully artificial, it's quite frankly unfair. look at how it was before DRS introduction.

it's mentioned before by others; the pink glasses. you don't have to go to the 70s or 80s. It's as recent as in the early 2000's too, looking with 'nostalgia' to the supposedly 'better' f1 cars of 2006 for example.

Even then it was the same.

If there is one thing to point a finger at in regards to how overtaking has become more difficult, it is that the rules have rather reduced 'artistic' freedom of various approaches to car design, resulting in rather similar approaches and thus, similar cars. Same goes for engines; theyre rather pretty much the same, also in their approach.

People confuse a full race with race moments, and confuse momentary overtaking with actual overtaking.
What i mean by that is that for example when there was still fueling, cars had huge different strategies.
So you saw lighter cars (with less fuel) overtaking heavier cars relatively 'easy'. The lighter car however at some point needs to refuel, and later on, the car that was heavier now is lighter and either overtakes the now heavy former car.

Is this overtaking? sure. is it fair? well, back than, one car had like what, a 40kg advantage in weight (less fuel) and now the car has an advantage of opening their rear wing.

in the end, the finish positions are 'the same'. the 'overtaking' never was real overtaking, it was reclaiming your actual position. the same as how for example stroll could be driving in p4 because he has not changed his tires yet. tactics.

'real overtaking' is at the start of the race, and teammates with same cars in same tactics. like Ricciardo vs Verstappen @ Baku for example. Don't tell me you didn't see those overtakes, back and forth.
Hamilton vs Rosberg, another example. etc. etc.

Overtaking is not dead at all.
Without attacking anyone, there's a lot of 'oldwives tales' going on.
Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools.

TwanV
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Re: Why overtaking is dead, and might never come back

Post by TwanV » Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:47 am

Manoah, your dutch-isms are legendary and I fully agree

strad
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Re: Why overtaking is dead, and might never come back

Post by strad » Wed Jul 04, 2018 6:45 pm

You're right. Overtaking is not dead... Wheel to wheel racing is dead.
I think that is what people are missing. And you're right that that is because of the cars being so close to the same. Even a tenth can make you a back marker.
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Manoah2u
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Re: Why overtaking is dead, and might never come back

Post by Manoah2u » Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:02 pm

strad wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 6:45 pm
Overtaking is not dead... Wheel to wheel racing is dead.
well, actually, Verstappen made wheel-to-wheel contact with Raikkonen during the start of the race :mrgreen:
Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools.

strad
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Re: Why overtaking is dead, and might never come back

Post by strad » Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:09 pm

Yes he did but I don't think that is what we traditionally call wheel to wheel racing. More like bumping or "rubbin is racin". :lol:
Lets see do we need a qualifier? How about for a half lap or more? :wink:
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Manoah2u
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Re: Why overtaking is dead, and might never come back

Post by Manoah2u » Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:10 pm

strad wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:09 pm
Yes he did but I don't think that is what we traditionally call wheel to wheel racing. More like bumping or rubbin is racin. :lol:
Lets see do we need a qualifier? How about for a half lap or more? :wink:
Verstappen vs Ricciardo @ Baku 2018.
Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools.

Zynerji
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Re: Why overtaking is dead, and might never come back

Post by Zynerji » Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:17 pm

Allowing DRS everywhere (with no 1s restriction) would lead to more driver error, and show who really has the cajones.

Thus, more overtaking.

Manoah2u
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Re: Why overtaking is dead, and might never come back

Post by Manoah2u » Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:45 pm

or......just ditch DRS.
Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools.

Zynerji
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Re: Why overtaking is dead, and might never come back

Post by Zynerji » Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:02 pm

Manoah2u wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:45 pm
or......just ditch DRS.
Pat Symonds said around 2007 that the reason we don't see much overtaking is that they cannot give the chassis more power than it can handle, thus very little room for driver error. Unlimited DRS in the race would tempt drivers to use it, thus giving more power than the chassis can handle.

I'd like to see a full distance, non points, race on the last day of post season Abu Dhabi tests every year where they experiment with things like unlimited DRS, and such. Even things like running reverse at Austria (to sort the idiotic plane exit).

strad
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Re: Why overtaking is dead, and might never come back

Post by strad » Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:18 pm

Do you mean reverse order starting order?
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Shrieker
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Re: Why overtaking is dead, and might never come back

Post by Shrieker » Thu Jul 05, 2018 3:22 am

Have you watched from 1998 to around 2007 ? :roll: I think you're wrong. Next year we're going to get a larger front wing (very minor improvement for following cars), but the DRS effect will be greater so any differences on race pace between cars is going to have an arguably much bigger effect position vice. You have a point though, in that the 2017 regulation change made it much harder for the cars to follow one another, compared to the previous formula.
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Manoah2u
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Re: Why overtaking is dead, and might never come back

Post by Manoah2u » Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:49 am

Zynerji wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:02 pm
Manoah2u wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:45 pm
or......just ditch DRS.
Pat Symonds said around 2007 that the reason we don't see much overtaking is that they cannot give the chassis more power than it can handle, thus very little room for driver error. Unlimited DRS in the race would tempt drivers to use it, thus giving more power than the chassis can handle.

I'd like to see a full distance, non points, race on the last day of post season Abu Dhabi tests every year where they experiment with things like unlimited DRS, and such. Even things like running reverse at Austria (to sort the idiotic plane exit).
to be honest, i think symonds is full of it. not giving the chassis more than it can handle? then build a better chassis.
in the 80's the cars had about 1200+ bhp, just think about that mighty BMW engine for example. plenty of overtaking.

if we're then looking at if he would be trying to say the cars will go sideways through the corners, like they have in the past, then great - that demands driver input, quality and opens windows for overtaking as errors will result going off-track and then losing time. it goes for everybody.

to be honest, the only real castration for competition i'm seeing is those darn fuel flow limits, and those rediculous max engine rules. it's artificial on making f1 look economic/reliable. all along, daily drag races across the world have many engines that only last 1 quarter mile run, and literally nobody bothers or is affected by it.

meanwhile, jean todt is only occupied with 'road safety' campaigns #-o nothing to do with f1.

if there's really a 'problem' in f1, it is the character of it, and that is the 'big heads' living in some different world, with no touch with reality. todt, whiting, most f1 bosses, etc.
Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools.