2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

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digitalrurouni
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by digitalrurouni » Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:37 pm

Man Alonso what a talent and what a wasted talent at that. I honestly think if I were Red Bull I would give him a shot and at a reduced salary of course and a year's contract with an option for another. F1 needs Alonso and F1 desperately needs Alonso in a good car. Verstappen will also get an impetus to keep Alonso at bay. And if Alonso is a little b*$#h then they have a year of him and can get rid of him. But then given the bad experience Alonso has had with Honda people might be reluctant him included in re-igniting that old alliance. Still a Red Bull shitty engine or not is a known quantity and will perform very well when all their engine ducks are in a row.

And no way Ricciardo is making 35 mill annually. Just no way.

AngusF1
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by AngusF1 » Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:41 pm

Phil wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:25 pm
You guys are mad. There is no #1 status...
Phil, yes, mostly all very reasonable commentary. Although, while I'd prefer that purely equal treatment without any orders was mandated in the rules, there certainly is #1 status at Ferrari and there somewhat is at Mercedes at present. Agreed that at present there is no #1 at Red Bull.
Phil wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:25 pm
Lastly, I'd also like to note that I can't remember any blatant favoritism against Daniel Ricciardo...
Yes. Thankfully, so far, race-related favouritism has only been minor, namely allowing the Wunderkind to crash Ricciardo out of the race twice without reprimand. However, Horner's statements yesterday that Ricciardo could soon end up like Webber, with all the unfair treatment and discrimination that that implies, give a pretty clear indication of where the team intended on heading.

As Verstappen said himself,
"I am his new project. He (Marko) wants to repeat the Vettel story..."
Source: http://www.newsonf1.com/2018/03/verstap ... w-project/

gandharva
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by gandharva » Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:56 pm

Thank you for posting this. I stumbled upon it yesterday evening and it is a very insightful podcast. Few nice stories about RBR history and the early relationship between Horner, Marko, Newey and Mateschitz. Also seems Geri does some nice lasagne. ;)

dren
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by dren » Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:02 pm

I'm not surprised my Horner's comments. It seemed pretty clear Ricciardo didn't want to become the second Webber. Max's big contract sealed his decision of leaving, it was just a matter of what was the best option at the time.
Honda!

Phil
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by Phil » Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:08 pm

In the end, it boils down to; Who is bigger, the team or the driver?

A driver like Hamilton or Vettel may have a certain leverage. Hamilton as a marketing object who has an appeal and reach far outside of F1. Both him and Vettel are now 4 times champions, so there's added value in that (from a marketing perspective) and they are known quantities in the performance they bring. However, even a team such as Mercedes knows their star driver is nothing without the car. Hence; For Hamilton to retain his popularity and success, he needs Mercedes and has as much to thank for. Mercedes position is even better once you consider that Hamilton, as gifted and popular he may be, is unlikely to grab a seat at a close competitor (Ferrari or RedBull). So Mercedes knows well that if Hamilton asks for something they are unwilling to give, he can't bargain too high, or... it's the highway for him. Mercedes 1, Hamilton 0.

And if there were a stipulated contractually #1 agreement, Hamilton wouldn't have been asked in Hungary last year to give back 3rd position to Bottas. If there were stipulated number 1 or number 2 drivers, Bottas wouldn't be maintaining in public that he trusts the team to give them equal opportunities.

Same applies to Vettel too. Yes, Ferrari may have been employing team-orders to help their 'better' driver in maximizing his points for the sole purpose to win the championship. This is likely NOT because there is something stipulated in the contract, but because they are placing their eggs in the basket that seems best equipped to win the championship. Same happened in 2008 when Massa ended up being the driver in the better position for the champion, despite Kimi winning it the year before.

Again, it's absurd to think a team would let a driver dictate terms. If Ferrari are favoring Vettel or if Mercedes are favoring Hamilton through use of team-orders, they are doing it because they want to, because they see it as the best strategy to maximize their winning chances and not because those drivers have a contract that gives them certain priorities.

In other teams, such as McLaren and Alonso, well, it could be different because obviously McLaren are as a team in a more desperate position given the strength of the car and their historic achievement (past 6 seasons). Alonso undoubtedly brings a huge value to the team in performance and sponsorship, so arguably, a team like McLaren may see themselves in a position to offer certain bonuses they otherwise wouldn't in order to secure their star driver (and with that attract further sponsorship). Even there too however, I doubt a team would go as far to offer a clear number 1 status because it would make them vulnerable to if, god forbid, the #2 starts out performing their star driver. And given the ego Alonso has, who knows, he probably doesn't see it as a requirement anyway, given he pretty much annihilated pretty much any team-mate he ever had (bar Hamilton).
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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Gettingonabit
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by Gettingonabit » Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:14 pm

Phil wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:25 pm
You guys are mad. There is no #1 status. #-o Such a status would be limiting to the team itself, if for whatever reason, the #2 guy significantly outperforms the #1, or if for whatever reason through circumstance, sheer luck or silly mistakes, the #1 ends up behind. To then be limited by a contractual agreement where a #1 and #2 are stipulated makes little sense, for any team.

What could be stipulated might be better support, better engineers, priority on updates etc, but even those are highly subjective and not enforceable in reality. Which are the better engineers in a pond of 100ths of employees? Are the newer updates always better? In the end, every team is the employer and the team is greater than one or two drivers. If you have the 3rd best car on the grid and arguably the best chassis and potential to supply a championship winning car, the drivers come to you and not the other way around. Why on earth should a driver who has 1.) never won a championship 2.) being mostly beaten in qualifying have any leverage in asking for a supposedly better status within the team that isn't enforceable anyway?

It makes zero sense.

In the end, these contracts come down to salary, duration and exit clauses and marketing time/commitments. They perhaps also stipulate a certain amount of 'freedom' for engagement on track against your team-mate. E.g. does the contract stipulate that they are free to race or if it's up to the team to make that determination by team-orders. This could be important, but if the team you are hoping to sign a lucrative contract for happens to be a desirable one, how much leverage and bargaining worth as a driver can you bring to the table?

Fact of the matter is; Max has been faster. He may be less consistent, prone to more errors, but the qualifying battle is quite shattering to Daniel even if you discount the technical issues that prevented him of a fair fight. That's the reality of it. It doesn't mean Daniel is slow, is also slower on race pace, doesn't have his worth or that he isn't still one of the best drivers on the grid. He may well be, but against Max and on 1-lap pace, there is that risk that his stock and attractiveness towards other teams might take a hit if he continues to be comprehensively beaten.

So in the end, it's good for Dan, that he frees himself from the RedBull family. RB have shown time and time again how ruthless they are if they are unhappy with ones performance. Kvyat is testament to that, but also earlier drivers too (Hartley, Buemi etc) that got the axe. By going to Renault and measuring himself against perhaps a potentially slower but known quality driver (Hulkenberg), his stock may increase and make him a more probable candidate for 2021.


Lastly, I'd also like to note that I can't remember any blatant favoritism against Daniel Ricciardo. Even in 2014, he had the full support of the team, even against the 4 time WDC champion driving alongside him. They allowed him to race, they allowed him to pass and on occasion also allowed him by through team-orders. This should be evidence enough that there was no #1 status stipulated in any contract, not even for the 4 time WDC champion. Why should there be now in regards to either Dan or Max?
I wish you were less sensible mate. It would save me from having to read your l o n g posts. :lol:

Ground Effect
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by Ground Effect » Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:54 pm

It's a bold move by Ricciardo, since it's been made clear that Red Bull agreed with his demands. But that said, I'm not surprised by the nbr 1 and nbr 2 talk, especially with Red Bull's history of "behind the scenes" favouritism. Marko has decided that Verstappen is the golden and chosen one, just like Vettel, we've seen it all before.
Q: (Stefano Mancini – La Stampa) Kimi, will you help Vettel to win his championship this year?
Kimi Raikkonen: I can only drive one car, obviously. 
@2018 Singapore Grand Prix drivers press conference.

zeph
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by zeph » Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:03 pm

The podcast was interesting and Horner seemingly candid. But he was a little duplicitous about Abu Dhabi 2010. Webber was ahead of Vettel in the WDC standings, but they sacrificed him to throw off Ferrari/Alonso and have Vettel take the crown.

He can say there is equal treatment, but like George Orwell famously wrote:”some are more equal than others”.

Situations like Turkey 2010 or Baku this year clearly illustrate that.

FPV GTHO
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by FPV GTHO » Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:44 pm

Im not getting too bogged down in the reasons why Ricciardo signed with Renault. Whats becoming evident more and more anytime someone from Red Bull speaks though, is they dont seem to handle these driver negotiations very well. I think theyre too used to holding all the cards, and either they want you in one of their cars or good luck elsewhere. When Webber negotiated with them for his single year deals, he dealed directly with Mateschitz but they also either had the fastest car or the potential to be. He knew Newey trusted and valued his input. Red Bull no longer have that strength that people want to be in their car. Everyone wants a Ferrari or Mercedes now. They already had Lauda taunt them for paying overs on Verstappen because there was a whisper he was going to Mercedes. Now Ricciardo has DARED to look elsewhere, and even bargain with Red Bull for his own gain. Typically these Red Bull drivers never have driver agents either

carisi2k
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by carisi2k » Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:52 pm

RonDennis wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:23 pm
carisi2k wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:55 am
Ricciardo is leaving for 70 million reasons. Renault had the best offer and Red Bull signing max up last year just made Daniel realise that he didn't want to become Mark Webber Mk 2.0.
You're delusional if you believe that Ricciardo will earn 35 million yearly.
Sorry I was just going off these news reports.

https://www.grandprix247.com/2018/08/06 ... ault-deal/

http://www.f1i.com/news/313448-ricciardo.html

https://www.f1today.net/en/news/f1/2402 ... th-renault

alexx_88
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by alexx_88 » Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:27 pm

Excellent interview with Horner. Tom Clarkson did an amazing job with this series so far. Hard to say if Horner was being political or not when he said those things about Ric, but it did sound like they anticipated Max will be faster and, like in every other championship contender team, the driver with less chances has to support his teammate. Can't wait to see Dan against Hulk. It will answer a lot of questions regarding driver performance. Last time this happened it shined a very bright light on Rosberg's hidden talents and, more importantly, showed how good Schumacher was, even at 42.

PS: Bitter or genuinely not interested in Honda ever again?


AngusF1
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by AngusF1 » Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:49 pm

I imagine more like, not interested in ending his career as Webber 2.0 and patsy for a boy he almost could have fathered.

Remember, Alonso is good mates with Webber and likely knows a good deal more about Red Bull's shenanigans than is publicly available.

RonDennis
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by RonDennis » Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:51 pm

carisi2k wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:52 pm
RonDennis wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:23 pm
carisi2k wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:55 am
Ricciardo is leaving for 70 million reasons. Renault had the best offer and Red Bull signing max up last year just made Daniel realise that he didn't want to become Mark Webber Mk 2.0.
You're delusional if you believe that Ricciardo will earn 35 million yearly.
Sorry I was just going off these news reports.

https://www.grandprix247.com/2018/08/06 ... ault-deal/

http://www.f1i.com/news/313448-ricciardo.html

https://www.f1today.net/en/news/f1/2402 ... th-renault
Yeah, that's where it goes wrong.

Reports from the Daily Express.

GhostF1
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by GhostF1 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:29 am

Ricciardo is earning 35 mil a year..

It's on the news here in Australia. This morning it was announced that Daniel Ricciardo is now officially "Australia's wealthiest sportsman since signing a deal worth 35 million annually with Renault" and I heard it again on the radio on the way into work..

Believe whatever you personally want to believe but it's made national news here and being given that status spot as wealthiest sportsman in the country.... that tells me all I need to hear.

univex
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by univex » Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:16 am

Phil wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:08 pm
In the end, it boils down to; Who is bigger, the team or the driver?

A driver like Hamilton or Vettel may have a certain leverage. Hamilton as a marketing object who has an appeal and reach far outside of F1. Both him and Vettel are now 4 times champions, so there's added value in that (from a marketing perspective) and they are known quantities in the performance they bring. However, even a team such as Mercedes knows their star driver is nothing without the car. Hence; For Hamilton to retain his popularity and success, he needs Mercedes and has as much to thank for. Mercedes position is even better once you consider that Hamilton, as gifted and popular he may be, is unlikely to grab a seat at a close competitor (Ferrari or RedBull). So Mercedes knows well that if Hamilton asks for something they are unwilling to give, he can't bargain too high, or... it's the highway for him. Mercedes 1, Hamilton 0.

And if there were a stipulated contractually #1 agreement, Hamilton wouldn't have been asked in Hungary last year to give back 3rd position to Bottas. If there were stipulated number 1 or number 2 drivers, Bottas wouldn't be maintaining in public that he trusts the team to give them equal opportunities.

Same applies to Vettel too. Yes, Ferrari may have been employing team-orders to help their 'better' driver in maximizing his points for the sole purpose to win the championship. This is likely NOT because there is something stipulated in the contract, but because they are placing their eggs in the basket that seems best equipped to win the championship. Same happened in 2008 when Massa ended up being the driver in the better position for the champion, despite Kimi winning it the year before.

Again, it's absurd to think a team would let a driver dictate terms. If Ferrari are favoring Vettel or if Mercedes are favoring Hamilton through use of team-orders, they are doing it because they want to, because they see it as the best strategy to maximize their winning chances and not because those drivers have a contract that gives them certain priorities.

In other teams, such as McLaren and Alonso, well, it could be different because obviously McLaren are as a team in a more desperate position given the strength of the car and their historic achievement (past 6 seasons). Alonso undoubtedly brings a huge value to the team in performance and sponsorship, so arguably, a team like McLaren may see themselves in a position to offer certain bonuses they otherwise wouldn't in order to secure their star driver (and with that attract further sponsorship). Even there too however, I doubt a team would go as far to offer a clear number 1 status because it would make them vulnerable to if, god forbid, the #2 starts out performing their star driver. And given the ego Alonso has, who knows, he probably doesn't see it as a requirement anyway, given he pretty much annihilated pretty much any team-mate he ever had (bar Hamilton).
Redbull are very good at hiding the preferential treatment. They do not do it with instructions etc. (Max is faster than you). However there are aspects to a car's development that are common across both drivers which favour a particular driver or driving style. Whilst set up is as per the driver, aero and engine in particular can (and is) developed around one driver.
Example Red Bull 2010. Mark had won three races in a row, he had an advantage over Vettel in his ability to control the Renault engine. Mark was able to feather the throttle in a way that gave him an advantage.
Redbull along with Renault chose to spend money and resources in developing an engine mapping that replicated what Mark could do as a driver so that it suited Seb. Publicly they claimed a small crack in Seb's chassis, his turnaround was an engine upgrade.
They committed to building the team (and car) around Seb. Pretty sure they have done the same with Max.

For what it is worth, I don't believe there is much between the two (Max and Ric) though Ric is the faster racer. Max goes flat out from FP1 through to Q and the Race. Ric is more cautious and sticks to the program and builds to Q.
Max's Q advantage is that he has more experience in Q of pushing to the limit throughout the weekend. The problem is that he takes unnecessary risk such as Monaco.