2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

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timbo wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:56 am
turbof1 wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:33 am
Basically he left Vettel enough room to be on track. But Vettel required more room to slow the car down. I think Verstappen did fail to realize that. Verstappen is entitled to his line because he did not take defensive action before the corner, thus is allowed to squeeze him but naturally leave enough space so not to push Vettel off the track. Verstappen did the minimum and nothing more.
I agree with the most of the analysis, but disagree here.
Here is the screen capture
https://i.postimg.cc/MGt0rKsL/2018-10-08_11-41-15.png
You can see, Vettel is already on the apex, however it is an early apex as he had to break on the inside. Verstappen as entering corner on a normal trajectory. Vettel is already more that half a car length in. However, at this point Vettel's right wheel is already inside the track of Verstappen's left wheel. So there's barely enough room for a car if it was going on a straight line, but the distance at this moment is actually closing. Next moment they touch, you can see the smoke from the left front wheel of Verstappen.
https://i.postimg.cc/YCykMQyf/2018-10-08_11-51-15.png

Thus I don't think this counts as enough room.
OTOH it was a type of overtake where it all depends on the defending driver and thus it was opportunistic by Vettel.
No the white line is the track. So it not enough room.

However we can clearly see that Vettel's car was behind Verstappen's and Vettel does not deserve the space and should have yielded.

If his front wheel was alongside at least, of if this was a standard braking sone then he would be entitled to the line, but in this case, no. So I now believe Max had right to turn in, but he was stupid for doing it because he could have had a DNF.
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Shrieker
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

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timbo wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:56 am
turbof1 wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:33 am
Basically he left Vettel enough room to be on track. But Vettel required more room to slow the car down. I think Verstappen did fail to realize that. Verstappen is entitled to his line because he did not take defensive action before the corner, thus is allowed to squeeze him but naturally leave enough space so not to push Vettel off the track. Verstappen did the minimum and nothing more.
I agree with the most of the analysis, but disagree here.
Here is the screen capture
https://i.postimg.cc/MGt0rKsL/2018-10-08_11-41-15.png
You can see, Vettel is already on the apex, however it is an early apex as he had to break on the inside. Verstappen as entering corner on a normal trajectory. Vettel is already more that half a car length in. However, at this point Vettel's right wheel is already inside the track of Verstappen's left wheel. So there's barely enough room for a car if it was going on a straight line, but the distance at this moment is actually closing. Next moment they touch, you can see the smoke from the left front wheel of Verstappen.
https://i.postimg.cc/YCykMQyf/2018-10-08_11-51-15.png

Thus I don't think this counts as enough room.
OTOH it was a type of overtake where it all depends on the defending driver and thus it was opportunistic by Vettel.
I agree with your analysis here. Verstappen leaves just enough room to fulfill the letter of the law, but not enough for the other driver to survive or avoid contact. See what he did to Bottas @ Monza, very similar. He's leaving some room so he doesn't get slapped with the rule but definitely to squeeze other drivers beyond reason, to scare them off from attempting an overtake on him in the future. Very poor sportsmanship, and very dirty mindset as well. Yesterday he was very lucky to finish where he did, considering he was airborne briefly after the contact.
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TAG
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

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Vasconia wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:55 pm
Restomaniac wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:24 pm

Please don’t misunderstand me. I’m not laying into Vettel as I try my best to be impartial but I can’t see the logic in going in like that against a driver who you know won’t give you personally an inch. It was never going to end any other way.
I don´t like this because its conclusion is do not try to overtake Max because he will close the door whatever it happens. Back in time Senna used to have this threatening attitude and it was pretty unfair in my opinion. Tough being hard Max should learn to be more aware of what is going on around him.
On the contrary, I think Max is very aware of what's going on around him and it's why he makes the moves he does. Vettel is the one that's historically had peripheral awareness issues. I've said this before though, Max drives like a man who's never lost a championship race.
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timbo
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:59 pm
However we can clearly see that Vettel's car was behind Verstappen's and Vettel does not deserve the space and should have yielded.
Well, look at this article, part 5 https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2014/08 ... of-racing/

It is not written in the sporting code, but usually, if an attacking driver is more than half a car length in (not ahead), defending one has to leave enough space.

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Sieper
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

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TAG wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:07 pm
Vasconia wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:55 pm
Restomaniac wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:24 pm

Please don’t misunderstand me. I’m not laying into Vettel as I try my best to be impartial but I can’t see the logic in going in like that against a driver who you know won’t give you personally an inch. It was never going to end any other way.
I don´t like this because its conclusion is do not try to overtake Max because he will close the door whatever it happens. Back in time Senna used to have this threatening attitude and it was pretty unfair in my opinion. Tough being hard Max should learn to be more aware of what is going on around him.
On the contrary, I think Max is very aware of what's going on around him and it's why he makes the moves he does. Vettel is the one that's historically had peripheral awareness issues. I've said this before though, Max drives like a man who's never lost a championship race.
This.
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dans79
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

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TAG wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:07 pm
On the contrary, I think Max is very aware of what's going on around him and it's why he makes the moves he does. Vettel is the one that's historically had peripheral awareness issues. I've said this before though, Max drives like a man who's never lost a championship race.
Ironically, his driving style means he will probably never be in a championship race in F1, because he looses to many points to dnfs and penalties.
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Restomaniac
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

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Vasconia wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:55 pm
Restomaniac wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:24 pm

Please don’t misunderstand me. I’m not laying into Vettel as I try my best to be impartial but I can’t see the logic in going in like that against a driver who you know won’t give you personally an inch. It was never going to end any other way.
I don´t like this because its conclusion is do not try to overtake Max because he will close the door whatever it happens. Back in time Senna used to have this threatening attitude and it was pretty unfair in my opinion. Tough being hard Max should learn to be more aware of what is going on around him.
I agree with you. However it what it is. As such Vettel really should have seen it coming like it or not. Better to pick a more normal spot such as the straight with full batteries, better engine and DRS. I’ll go back to Vettel VS Verstappen as rutting stags. There is no love lost there from eithe side IMHO.

Restomaniac
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

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marvin78 wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:58 pm
Vasconia wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:55 pm
Restomaniac wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:24 pm

Please don’t misunderstand me. I’m not laying into Vettel as I try my best to be impartial but I can’t see the logic in going in like that against a driver who you know won’t give you personally an inch. It was never going to end any other way.
I don´t like this because its conclusion is do not try to overtake Max because he will close the door whatever it happens. Back in time Senna used to have this threatening attitude and it was pretty unfair in my opinion. Tough being hard Max should learn to be more aware of what is going on around him.
That's exactly what I think. They created a driver which is not overtakable and that's completely mad.
I agree with this too.

Fulcrum
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

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dans79 wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:43 pm
TAG wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:07 pm
On the contrary, I think Max is very aware of what's going on around him and it's why he makes the moves he does. Vettel is the one that's historically had peripheral awareness issues. I've said this before though, Max drives like a man who's never lost a championship race.
Ironically, his driving style means he will probably never be in a championship race in F1, because he looses to many points to dnfs and penalties.
Absolutely. I wonder if he'll be able to moderate his defensive technique when the stakes are higher?

timbo
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

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dans79 wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:43 pm
Ironically, his driving style means he will probably never be in a championship race in F1, because he looses to many points to dnfs and penalties.
Not being his fan, I think this is an overly harsh statement.
I think there are things which are weighing on him and making him "adventurous". First of all, with all the great promise he's in F1 for a fourth full season now. Yet, he not once was in a position of fighting for the title and not because of his mistakes. He entered F1 as very young and almost destined to beat all "youngest ever" records, and now if he doesn't get pole before the end of the year he won't be able to beat Vettel as youngest pole-sitter, if he doesn't win championship next year he won't be the youngest champion (I may have my math wrong). Now add an overly aggressive and pushy farther behind his back and a healthy dose of Dr. Marco, and I think the resulting mix is that of someone who really doesn't care for grabbing points consistently.
It all may change when he is in a position to have something to defend.

Fulcrum
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

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TAG wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:31 pm
Vetttel describing closing the door on Hamilton into the wall in Russia, "it was tough but fair". Verstappen's squeeze on him, "unacceptable". The guy in front controls and in this one instance Vertappen's defense was masterful and textbook CLEAN.
Yet somehow, an accident occurred. Not exactly clean.

This is just another example, of an increasingly long list, of low expected value defensive moves by Verstappen. Verstappen was lucky to get away with no damage, no puncture, and no loss of position.

Likewise, low expected value decision-making on Vettel's behalf as well.

Wynters
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

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On a positive note, the race did contain some hilarious moments. I loved Alonso's 'Well, if you push me off the track then I'm going to go FULL MARIO KART!' as his bright orange car bounced over more and more grass. Also loved Leclerc's "He is, and will always be, stupid." and finally Verstappen's 'I can't believe Kimi didn't stop on track and wait for me to rejoin ahead of him!' Each of those had me chuckling which, considering what time it was, is pretty impressive.

Also, the racing in the Midfield was ace. We just need to have two races. One with the big three and then one with everyone else. (I know, it wouldn't work due to sponsorship, but I can dream).

foxmulder_ms
foxmulder_ms
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

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Vestappen literally hit Rai with only a 5 sec penalty, no consequence whatsoever. He stole that podium space from his team mate or Rai.

Formula is a contact sport :) =D> =D>

GrandAxe
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

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dans79 wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:43 pm
TAG wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:07 pm
On the contrary, I think Max is very aware of what's going on around him and it's why he makes the moves he does. Vettel is the one that's historically had peripheral awareness issues. I've said this before though, Max drives like a man who's never lost a championship race.
Ironically, his driving style means he will probably never be in a championship race in F1, because he looses to many points to dnfs and penalties.
That's it, Max will go into a championship battle with his current mental mindset, except he learns that drivers from teams with championship prospects only currently avoid him because they see him as a wrecking ball with nothing to lose.

Things will quickly change when Max becomes a contender himself - for instance, Lewis made the audacious move on Vettel at a point in the season when a crash that took them both out would have been in his favour. In Vettel's position, Max in his unyielding style would probably have had a race ending crash.

In 2019, he could easily find himself trailing Gasly on the points table (the same way he trailed Ricciardo until a couple of races back, despite being faster); only that trailing Gasly (in Gasly's first Red Bull season) would be very damaging... Really damaging indeed.

Vettel's move on Max though was wrong. Its called dive bombing and is against the rules.

I'm sure he would have been punished severely if he hadn't come off worse of. Dive bombing seems to have come into fashion these days with commentators regularly praising Ricciardo for coming "from so far back".

Jolle
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

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timbo wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 4:08 pm
dans79 wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:43 pm
Ironically, his driving style means he will probably never be in a championship race in F1, because he looses to many points to dnfs and penalties.
Not being his fan, I think this is an overly harsh statement.
I think there are things which are weighing on him and making him "adventurous". First of all, with all the great promise he's in F1 for a fourth full season now. Yet, he not once was in a position of fighting for the title and not because of his mistakes. He entered F1 as very young and almost destined to beat all "youngest ever" records, and now if he doesn't get pole before the end of the year he won't be able to beat Vettel as youngest pole-sitter, if he doesn't win championship next year he won't be the youngest champion (I may have my math wrong). Now add an overly aggressive and pushy farther behind his back and a healthy dose of Dr. Marco, and I think the resulting mix is that of someone who really doesn't care for grabbing points consistently.
It all may change when he is in a position to have something to defend.
Hmmm, he's still on a very steep learning curve. You can see that how he, since halfway trough 2017 takes more and more distance from RIC. He drives hard, still exploring his limits, getting it wrong sometimes (just like Senna, Schumacher and Hamilton in their first half of their career). He has a raw speed and feeling for the car that is only matched by Hamilton at the moment and because of the speed deficit of the RedBull he has to be on the limit all of the time. He has to defend in the corner because he will be passed on DRS on the next straight, or he has to attack into the corner because he hasn't got a PU that will give him an egde on corner exit. His moves aren alway executed well but they are planned, something you can't say from someone like Vettel, who had too many "why???" moments over the past few years. Those couple of inches of perfection will come in the coming years and he will be able to perform a move like Hamilton did on Ricciardo at Monaco 2016.