Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter does not belong here.
Polite
-2
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:36 am

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

Post by Polite » Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:27 am

Quote, British media is speculating on Ferrari's Pu till the beginning of the year while they report the AMG solution only after the first FIA public statement.
And also for the 2017 oil gate in SPA, British media didnt talk of it at all...but when the new regulation came in, they only noticed the reduced gap between FERRARI and AMG, not saying that was AMG cheating on oil before and so they lose power after the new regulatione, but saying that the new rules was in favor of FERRARI (was Renault who contested the oil burning).
This is so strange =D>

henry
148
User avatar
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 7:49 pm
Location: England

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

Post by henry » Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:41 am

There still seems to be a lot of confusion about the role of the FIA in regulation creation and enforcement.

It may be worth comparing it to how other law based societies work. This is my comparison.

The FIA is the executive branch of government.

The FIA promotes and writes laws, but the lawmaking body is the the World Sporting Council. Until approved by the WSC anything the FIA writes or communicates is not a law, or regulation.

The laws are applied by the courts, for the discussion happening now there are two. The Stewards at any race event, who rule on the law during the event*. Outside of the event appeals may be made to the International Court of Appeals.

Just as in national systems the lawmakers and courts are paid for by the executive.

Just as in national systems the laws, approved by the WSC, may contain clauses that permit the executive branch, the FIA, vary or make law under certain circumstances. The most obvious example is in the case of Saety related issues.

The executive also pays for a police force. The police force execute technical duties, e.g. scrutineering, and procedural duties, e.g. flag deployment and monitoring, track limits etc. If they think someone has broken the law they report them to the stewards.

So no matter how much it appears that the FIA executive should be able to decide or not whether something is legal or not, they can’t. Only the WSC can say what the law is and only the courts can decide what it means.

*The event lasts from start of scrutineering to 30 minutes after the publication of provisional results.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

subcritical71
45
User avatar
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:04 pm
Location: USA-Virginia

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

Post by subcritical71 » Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:10 pm

henry wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:41 am
There still seems to be a lot of confusion about the role of the FIA in regulation creation and enforcement.

It may be worth comparing it to how other law based societies work. This is my comparison.

The FIA is the executive branch of government.

The FIA promotes and writes laws, but the lawmaking body is the the World Sporting Council. Until approved by the WSC anything the FIA writes or communicates is not a law, or regulation.

The laws are applied by the courts, for the discussion happening now there are two. The Stewards at any race event, who rule on the law during the event*. Outside of the event appeals may be made to the International Court of Appeals.

Just as in national systems the lawmakers and courts are paid for by the executive.

Just as in national systems the laws, approved by the WSC, may contain clauses that permit the executive branch, the FIA, vary or make law under certain circumstances. The most obvious example is in the case of Saety related issues.

The executive also pays for a police force. The police force execute technical duties, e.g. scrutineering, and procedural duties, e.g. flag deployment and monitoring, track limits etc. If they think someone has broken the law they report them to the stewards.

So no matter how much it appears that the FIA executive should be able to decide or not whether something is legal or not, they can’t. Only the WSC can say what the law is and only the courts can decide what it means.

*The event lasts from start of scrutineering to 30 minutes after the publication of provisional results.
Great summary. Makes it all a bit more clear.
How to make F1 better: "Less aero, more power, no DRS!" - Paul Charsley

zokipirlo
4
Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2015 9:49 pm

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

Post by zokipirlo » Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:36 pm


subcritical71
45
User avatar
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:04 pm
Location: USA-Virginia

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

Post by subcritical71 » Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:41 pm

zokipirlo wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:36 pm
Mercedes again without "new" wheel rims
Makes sense given the situation, as noted in the article, I don't see what other option they realistically have.
How to make F1 better: "Less aero, more power, no DRS!" - Paul Charsley

Dipesh1995
35
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2014 4:11 pm

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

Post by Dipesh1995 » Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:17 pm

Image
Image

subcritical71
45
User avatar
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:04 pm
Location: USA-Virginia

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

Post by subcritical71 » Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:20 pm

Polite wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:09 pm
subcritical71 wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:41 pm
zokipirlo wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:36 pm
Mercedes again without "new" wheel rims
Makes sense given the situation, as noted in the article, I don't see what other option they realistically have.
They could face the fia checks! Or they will have poor performance in race and this will be the 3rd evidence in a row of what those rims were about :twisted:
I don't get your logic as the FIA have already checked and cleared it :roll: Merc winning this year must have really left you sore.
How to make F1 better: "Less aero, more power, no DRS!" - Paul Charsley

Big Tea
36
User avatar
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:57 pm

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

Post by Big Tea » Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:33 pm

I wonder if they maybe think by not showing them they will cause Ferrari and RBR to tie up a research group looking for the advantage for themselves for next year?
Can I make a 3D printer on my 3D printer?

subcritical71
45
User avatar
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:04 pm
Location: USA-Virginia

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

Post by subcritical71 » Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:48 pm

Big Tea wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:33 pm
I wonder if they maybe think by not showing them they will cause Ferrari and RBR to tie up a research group looking for the advantage for themselves for next year?
A couple of ideas I had (from most probably to least probable);
  • First and foremost, with threats of protest just wrap up both titles without them, not sense taking unnecessary risks.
  • Save the innovation for next year. Then let them protest. They can get a few more races next year before the others figure it out, instead of the information getting out this year and having all winter for the others to catch up.
  • As you mention, tie up the others with researching a solution (tied with the second bullet).
  • They are now on top of their tire issues and don't need the additional heating/cooling of the spacer plate.
  • They knew it was questionable and got a few races out of it so their happy with the ROI already.
How to make F1 better: "Less aero, more power, no DRS!" - Paul Charsley

Morteza
1110
User avatar
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:23 pm
Location: Bushehr, Iran

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

Post by Morteza » Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:44 pm

Image
Two different rear wings
Image

Image
Via AMuS
"A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool."~William Shakespeare

Sierra117
16
User avatar
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:19 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

Post by Sierra117 » Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:34 am

subcritical71 wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:48 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:33 pm
I wonder if they maybe think by not showing them they will cause Ferrari and RBR to tie up a research group looking for the advantage for themselves for next year?
    A couple of ideas I had (from most probably to least probable);
    • First and foremost, with threats of protest just wrap up both titles without them, not sense taking unnecessary risks.
    • Save the innovation for next year. Then let them protest. They can get a few more races next year before the others figure it out, instead of the information getting out this year and having all winter for the others to catch up.
    • As you mention, tie up the others with researching a solution (tied with the second bullet).
    • They are now on top of their tire issues and don't need the additional heating/cooling of the spacer plate.
    • They knew it was questionable and got a few races out of it so their happy with the ROI already.
    But the thing is, would others really bother with copying it? Merc, due to their design philosophy, are the only ones who have had persistent tyre nightmares that other teams really don't have. If they do they can deal with it with suspension/rake characteristics but Merc don't have much of a choice.

    Polite
    -2
    Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:36 am

    Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

    Post by Polite » Fri Nov 09, 2018 10:27 am

    subcritical71 wrote:
    Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:48 pm

    A couple of ideas I had (from most probably to least probable);
    • First and foremost, with threats of protest just wrap up both titles without them, not sense taking unnecessary risks.
    • Save the innovation for next year. Then let them protest. They can get a few more races next year before the others figure it out, instead of the information getting out this year and having all winter for the others to catch up.
    • As you mention, tie up the others with researching a solution (tied with the second bullet).
    • They are now on top of their tire issues and don't need the additional heating/cooling of the spacer plate.
    • They knew it was questionable and got a few races out of it so their happy with the ROI already.
    In my opinion only the first one is true for sure in combination with the last one.

    2nd and 3rd stataments can be true in the way they dont want to give informations to other teams who could ask FIA for a clarification before the beginning of the 2019 season: do u remember the frick and the clarification asked by Ferrari which maked it illegal after other teams have already lost time developing it? (Merc and FI for sure.. but maybe it affected also Rbr)

    and no! they arent on top of their probs for tyre issues. This should be clear after the last 2 races where, in the very last one Mercs were the only cars with rear graining problem (while others have only graining on the front tires) and in the gp before was the only car with huge blistering and a 2nd pitstop needed.

    (hoping this is not taken as bias :P )

    M840TR
    136
    Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:04 pm

    Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

    Post by M840TR » Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:22 pm

    Didn't realize they went from the NACA duct to a more conventional one.

    Image

    Morteza
    1110
    User avatar
    Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:23 pm
    Location: Bushehr, Iran

    Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

    Post by Morteza » Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:57 pm

    M840TR wrote:
    Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:22 pm
    Didn't realize they went from the NACA duct to a more conventional one.

    https://cdn-4.motorsport.com/images/mgl ... wer--1.jpg
    They had that since the beginning.
    This is a photo from the first pre-season testing of 2018
    Image
    "A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool."~William Shakespeare

    GPR -A
    11
    User avatar
    Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:08 pm

    Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

    Post by GPR -A » Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:18 pm

    Ted was confirming on Sky that, Mercedes are indeed running the new Wheel hubs with those holes.