2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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TAG
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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TwanV wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:10 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:09 pm
So you think Toto ordered Ocon to crash in to Max?

Oh look, here comes Flavio after all. Hi Flavio!
No I didn't say that. You challenge me with this tin foil hat stuff. I said that he would be told to leave Hamilton alone. Lets hope it stays with that, because anything else is foul play. But let's be clear: What this says is that Mercedes doesn't give a damn about anyone, they want to win at all cost, regardless of the show or some sense of fair play.
Man that was a tough loss for Verstappen... I mean he had the race win assured, he was a couple of seconds up the road from a guy with both PU issues and old tires. If only there was something Max could have done, but alas, Mercedes, it's their fault. LOLz.
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Phil
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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TwanV wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:57 pm
Phil, I don't know what's happened to you as you were very balanced all in all but it seems you've entrenched yourself in your stance on this (and maybe the drivers in question on the whole?). What you're saying here makes absolutely no sense to me as you don't take into account the opposite view.
I think I have. If you go back to page 22, I was actually quick to blame Ocon for the incident in the heat of the race.

That was at the time, during the race, when they simply showed a replay of the collision, without the proper context. Later, after watching the full onboard of Ocon and seeing how there was a 2-lap build-up to the collision/incident, I changed my mind, because I felt Ocon was absolutely in his right to unlap himself, he did it in the most appropriate place of the track (long DRS zone), he had a legitimate run up and even was ahead (not to mention at a advantage into T2) and I feel Max wasn't being cooperative and playing ball. If you don't play ball and make it hard for your opposition (and again, against a guy he wasn't even racing), then I'm sorry, but I think he needs to take a good long and hard look at himself.

There's a thing called 'cause' and 'effect'. The 'cause' of the incident IMO is not the T2 moment when Ocon was already there, it happened before when Max moved to the inside before T1 to defend and started "battling" Ocon for track position.

I also put a large portion of the blame at RedBull who failed to inform their driver that he had a very quick Force-India on his tail and that he should perhaps just let him by to not compromise his race. I sadly don't have the time to look for examples, but there are other instances where lapped traffic have come through the field overtaking cars that were a lap ahead. This because at times, the guys at the front will be nursing their tires home while the back of the field is coming through with fresher tires and fighting for scraps. It has happened before, it's just that no one realizes it because it rarely gets shown or commented because it's really a non-issue.

I think a lot has to do with attitude and bad judgement here. At the end of the day, Max really could have played it safe and not get rattled by someone who wasn't relevant to his race or his position.
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TwanV
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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TAG wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:20 pm
TwanV wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:10 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:09 pm
So you think Toto ordered Ocon to crash in to Max?

Oh look, here comes Flavio after all. Hi Flavio!
No I didn't say that. You challenge me with this tin foil hat stuff. I said that he would be told to leave Hamilton alone. Lets hope it stays with that, because anything else is foul play. But let's be clear: What this says is that Mercedes doesn't give a damn about anyone, they want to win at all cost, regardless of the show or some sense of fair play.
Man that was a tough loss for Verstappen... I mean he had the race win assured, he was a couple of seconds up the road from a guy with both PU issues and old tires. If only there was something Max could have done, but alas, Mercedes, it's their fault. LOLz.
Damn guys read please and don't bore us with these childish reactions. This is about the only driver that is giving support to Ocon here out of all reactions, both current and former drivers, is Hamilton, the only one to benefit. This is observed by Jolyon Palmer and I agree with him, he will be biased on this matter.

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TAG
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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If I was a principal at RB knowing that my senior driver for next year was a guy willing to throw away a certain win because he's a reactionary and incapable of seeing a big picture, I'd be mucho worried. Imagine how Verstappen would have reacted to Ricciardo's season given the hardware problems. Very much looking forward to 2019.
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tranquility2k4
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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My own take on the Verstappen / Ocon incident for what it's worth is they were both to blame. Ocon clearly should have been more careful when attempting to overtake and unlap himself against the race leader, however, I feel Max is just as much to blame with how he completely cut across Ocon. I don't buy this talk of Ocon leaving his nose in there or comparing this to the incident with Stroll and Alonso from Austin. There was easily enough room for them to both get round the corner and Max simply either assumed he would not be there or decided he was not going by (probably in line with his usual arrogance). I fully expect Max knew exactly what he was doing - he found out it was Ocon, was annoyed thinking why is this backmarker trying to overtake me and went to cut across him, thinking Ocon would have to pull out of it and lose time. Max would never admit this, but I am quite sure this is what happened. Now of course that move is immature but he wouldn't have done it if he expected Ocon to actually not pull out of it - but it's just an amateur mistake, whichever way you look at it.

Max reminds me a little of Hamilton when he first came into the sport - he was renowned for his overtakes and almost bullying other drivers on track, and whilst he's still clearly a good overtaker, he takes far, far less risk, than he used to. He of course had some bad episodes during e.g. 2011 and learnt from it.

The other drivers get fed up of Max's driving, which is often borderline dirty or dangerous and so don't have much sympathy when he crashes. Imagine how close Max would be to winning the title this year if he'd of not lost a humongous amount of points through his mistakes - I guess someone would have to do the maths, but he wouldn't be too far off, and would be way ahead of Vettel in 2nd. Look at it another way, imagine what Lewis would have done in that Red Bull this year, with the way he has driven and the general lack of mistakes/accidents he has had.

TwanV
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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TAG wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:38 pm
If I was a principal at RB knowing that my senior driver for next year was a guy willing to throw away a certain win because he's a reactionary and incapable of seeing a big picture, I'd be mucho worried. Imagine how Verstappen would have reacted to Ricciardo's season given the hardware problems. Very much looking forward to 2019.
Your point? That Ricciardo is handling things professionally? That Verstappen hit Ocon on purpose? Sigh. I don't think RB is really worried about these things.

dans79
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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TwanV wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:10 pm
But let's be clear: What this says is that Mercedes doesn't give a damn about anyone, they want to win at all cost, regardless of the show or some sense of fair play.
Ironic, because that's how it seems Max drives and many of his fans seems to think/act.
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dans79
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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TwanV wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:45 pm
TAG wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:38 pm
If I was a principal at RB knowing that my senior driver for next year was a guy willing to throw away a certain win because he's a reactionary and incapable of seeing a big picture, I'd be mucho worried. Imagine how Verstappen would have reacted to Ricciardo's season given the hardware problems. Very much looking forward to 2019.
Your point?
If you can't see the point in Tag's statement, I suggest you re-read it a few more times, it's blatantly obvious!
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Sieper
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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TAG, Max had a Ricciardo 2018 season back in 2017, his reaction was try harder next race (only to see his car come to a smoldering stop yet again) only at one point I heard him say something along the lines that he didn't know if he could continue onwards. But in fact he kept on driving his hart out all season. Just like Ricci has done this year (despite a few less then optimal interviews, and admittedly, Ricci has now already signed at a different team so his mindset will be different ).

And Max can see the big picture, he made sure to get out of Kimi's way (after he had already overtaken him at the start) going into turn 4. Something only in Japan he refused to do still (after his lock up). And he made damn sure that any attempt on Lewis was going to be decisive and in the optimal place (after China and Bahrein). In this case he truly did not expect the Ocon Attack, he will have learned from this.
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DutchDopey
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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An observation. I see a lot of people here who are defending Ocon are either attacking the persons defending Max, or attacking Max as a person. I am new here, although I was coming on this forum for a while now just reading without account, great technical stuff and facts. But my expectations of this forum were a little higher than I now get confronted with.

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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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DutchDopey wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 5:03 pm
I am new here, although I was coming on this forum for a while now just reading without account, great technical stuff and facts. But my expectations of this forum were a little higher than I now get confronted with.
  • "be the change you want to see in the world"
  • stay away from the race threads
Last edited by nzjrs on Tue Nov 13, 2018 5:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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JonoNic
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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dans79 wrote:
ringo wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:53 am
Max can fight for the championship next year if the Honda engine is good enough to put him on the front row frequently.
His only enemy is himself. He has a lot to learn about racing.
I get the feeling Honda's reliability will take a down turn next year when Newey tries the shrink wrap their PU.
Do you think they didn't learn from their Mclaren mistakes? They should have a good database of what worked or did not work with Mcl and TR then implement that into RB bodywork...
Always find the gap then use it.

TwanV
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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nzjrs wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 5:04 pm
DutchDopey wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 5:03 pm
I am new here, although I was coming on this forum for a while now just reading without account, great technical stuff and facts. But my expectations of this forum were a little higher than I now get confronted with.
  • "be the change you want to see in the world"
  • stay away from the race threads
Haha now that is good advice, +1 :lol: Welcome DutchDopey

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Sieper
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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tranquility2k4 wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:42 pm
My own take on the Verstappen / Ocon incident for what it's worth is they were both to blame. Ocon clearly should have been more careful when attempting to overtake and unlap himself against the race leader, however, I feel Max is just as much to blame with how he completely cut across Ocon. I don't buy this talk of Ocon leaving his nose in there or comparing this to the incident with Stroll and Alonso from Austin. There was easily enough room for them to both get round the corner and Max simply either assumed he would not be there or decided he was not going by (probably in line with his usual arrogance). I fully expect Max knew exactly what he was doing - he found out it was Ocon, was annoyed thinking why is this backmarker trying to overtake me and went to cut across him, thinking Ocon would have to pull out of it and lose time. Max would never admit this, but I am quite sure this is what happened. Now of course that move is immature but he wouldn't have done it if he expected Ocon to actually not pull out of it - but it's just an amateur mistake, whichever way you look at it.

Max reminds me a little of Hamilton when he first came into the sport - he was renowned for his overtakes and almost bullying other drivers on track, and whilst he's still clearly a good overtaker, he takes far, far less risk, than he used to. He of course had some bad episodes during e.g. 2011 and learnt from it.

The other drivers get fed up of Max's driving, which is often borderline dirty or dangerous and so don't have much sympathy when he crashes. Imagine how close Max would be to winning the title this year if he'd of not lost a humongous amount of points through his mistakes - I guess someone would have to do the maths, but he wouldn't be too far off, and would be way ahead of Vettel in 2nd. Look at it another way, imagine what Lewis would have done in that Red Bull this year, with the way he has driven and the general lack of mistakes/accidents he has had.
I would like to reiterate though that Ocon had no "time" to loose. A point that people who do not like Max very much keep glossing over. Ocon was on average 1,2 second slower per lap then the frontrunners. I think the following was the RFPI plan; Ocon as it hgappened exited the Pit just behind Max (because the pitstop failed a bit and took to long) they I think purposely pitted him so that he could (if the pitstop had gone as planned) potentially rejoin just in front of Max and his fresh SS could possibly just enable him for a few laps to stay out of Blue Flag area and that hopefully would have cost Max some tires enabling Lewis maybe to creep back on to him (or in case of a second Lewis pitstop would have cost Max more on his yellows (if he stayed out) and they would be worse coming on to race end. But as the pitstop took too long Ocon fell back behind Max. The plan was over. But then Ocon decided, heck, I am 1,2 seconds slower but I can use my fresh Tires and give it all in them and in a brilliant move unlap myself and still keep Max at bay for some laps after that and hopefully enjoy the spotlight for potentially still clinging a Merc B team seat.

Aking out 1,5 second more then is in the tires can only go well for about three laps or so, then they are done for. Once Ocon failed to join ahead of Max he should have just returned to his optimal pace, the plan to hold up Max a bit had failed. But helass, Ocon was out for glory (or worse).

This does not take away that Max will have learned from it and like Lewis said, any next similar scenario's max will likely just move over (despite of that being needed is ridiculous in the first place).

Imagine this if you will. If you are a backmarker you get blue flagged, once lapping cars appear on your tail. Once you get passed you may unlap yourself. If your tires are fresh enough and if your engine is powerful enough you can unlap yourself, and If Max would have followed Lewis advice he would have to had taken a less then optimal line through turn 2 loosing time! Then in sector 2 he is quicker, the backmarker gets blue flags and again at cost of time you overtake him (needing a less then ideal line). Then coming on to turn 1 the same story can start over.
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Sieper
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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nzjrs wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 5:04 pm
DutchDopey wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 5:03 pm
I am new here, although I was coming on this forum for a while now just reading without account, great technical stuff and facts. But my expectations of this forum were a little higher than I now get confronted with.
  • "be the change you want to see in the world"
  • stay away from the race threads
There is a third option, if some people are really taking it too far, click on their name and then "hide user posts" or something along those lines. It really helps if some persons insist on keeping making reactions in that mindset.
Just a personal interest, a Family recreating a WW2 May 1940 Dutch warbird from scratch: https://www.facebook.com/FlyingFokkerD21/