Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
saviour stivala
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by saviour stivala » Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:34 pm

(1) "aluminum alloy which is either" just keep reading on and you will see why steel pistons are not compatible with technical rules.
(2) no it was not Fred Turk, it was one of the top speculators in the F1 media that pushed the use of Mahle TJI in FI, and he did that within a week of havening first pushed out and than retracted the use of HCCI in F1.

Dr. Acula
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Dr. Acula » Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:36 pm

McHonda wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:04 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 10:19 am
McHonda wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:54 am
Yes and Yes.
(1) Pistons materials 5.17.1:- “Aluminum ally which is either AL-si, AL-Cu, AL-Mg, or AL-Zn based. The rules essentially allow the following. (1) 2000 series aluminum alloyed with cooper. (2) 4000 series aluminum alloyed with silicon. (3) 5000 series aluminum alloyed with magnesium. (4) 7000 series aluminum alloyed with zinc. In my personal opinion what is being used is called RR58, its composition is AL (93.7%). Cu (2.3%). Mo (1.6%). Fe (1.1%). Ni (1.0%). Si (0.18%). Ti (0.07%). RR58 was originally developed by Rolls Royce in 1930.
(2) 5.10.1 500 bar max pressure. 5.10.2 One direct injector per cylinder. What I can see is ‘in-cylinder wall from exhaust side inserted injectors. What I can see in the Mahle TJI pre-combustion chamber is both the injector and the plug are inserted inside the pre-combustion chamber.
1) Where does it say you can't use steel pistons? (Edit: Alloyed Steel we're talking about here)
2) You already know its an adapted form of TJI to comply with F1 regulations, Mahle boss Fred Turk literally announced that was the case in 2016.
1) It doesn't, also i don't know which version of the technical regulations SS uses as a reference. In the newest version, published 15.10.18, it only states.
5.17.1 Pistons must respect Article 5.16. Titanium alloys are not permitted.
and the only relevant paragraph for piston materials in paragraph 5.16 is
5.16.1 Unless explicitly permitted for a specific application, the following materials may not be used anywhere on the power unit :
a) Magnesium based alloys.
b) Metal Matrix Composites (MMC’s).
c) Intermetallic materials.
d) Alloys containing more than 5% by weight of Platinum, Ruthenium, Iridium or Rhenium.
e) Copper based alloys containing more than 2.75% Beryllium.
f) Any other alloy class containing more than 0.25% Beryllium.
g) Tungsten base alloys.
h) Ceramics and ceramic matrix composites.
So, steel pistons are perfectly in conformity with the rules.

subcritical71
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by subcritical71 » Wed Dec 12, 2018 1:36 pm

SS is not using the current regulations. Meaning he is not using the latest 2018 or 2019 as reference).

2) 5.10.2 says nothing about "direct injection" (in the current regulations).

saviour stivala
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by saviour stivala » Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:22 pm

4.10.2:- One ‘direct injector’ per cylinder.
As to engine materials allowed for the following engine components to be made off “crankcase and cylinder block”, “crankshaft/camshafts”, “pistons”. I will limit myself to the above parts and to as far back as 2012 technical rules. I will be much obliged if anybody can lead me to rules changes for materials allowed since 2012. Apart from possible technical material detail as posted in my previous post that has been allowed since, “crankcase and cylinder block from cast or wrought aluminum alloys”. “crankshaft/camshafts from iron-based alloys”. “pistons from aluminum alloys”.

tcooper27
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by tcooper27 » Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:54 pm

saviour stivala wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:34 pm
(2) no it was not Fred Turk, it was one of the top speculators in the F1 media that pushed the use of Mahle TJI in FI, and he did that within a week of havening first pushed out and than retracted the use of HCCI in F1.
Talk about a broken record. Mahle's VP announced it officially. It's on their website. I linked it for you 30 pages ago, go read it.

subcritical71
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by subcritical71 » Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:37 pm

saviour stivala wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:22 pm
4.10.2:- One ‘direct injector’ per cylinder.
Again, your not using current regulations or even the correct paragraph in your 'quoted' rules.

2018 Regulations (published 7.12.17):

4.10.2 -> Does not exist

5.10.2 There may only be one fuel injector per cylinder and no fuel injectors are permitted upstream
of the intake valves or downstream of the exhaust valves. Only approved parts may be used
and the list of parts approved by the FIA, and the approval procedure, may be found in the
Appendix to the Technical Regulations.

2019 Regulations (published 15.10.18):

4.10.2 -> Does not exist

5.10.2 There may only be one fuel injector per cylinder and no fuel injectors are permitted upstream
of the intake valves or downstream of the exhaust valves. Only approved parts may be used
and the list of parts approved by the FIA, and the approval procedure, may be found in the
Appendix to the Technical Regulations.

Image

McHonda
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by McHonda » Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:43 pm

saviour stivala wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:34 pm
(1) "aluminum alloy which is either" just keep reading on and you will see why steel pistons are not compatible with technical rules.
(2) no it was not Fred Turk, it was one of the top speculators in the F1 media that pushed the use of Mahle TJI in FI, and he did that within a week of havening first pushed out and than retracted the use of HCCI in F1.
1) There is nothing forbidding the use of steel in pistons as others have now pointed out above.
2) Yes it was Fred Turk and I know you've had the quotes posted to you before because I've done it myself. But just to be sure here it is again...

“The Mahle Motorsports engineers have found the right solution for Scuderia Ferrari. More than five years of development preceded that crucial phone call to Maranello with the proposal: ‘We’ve found an interesting new solution for you.’ Mahle Jet Ignition is the name of the innovation that gives the engines from Maranello a boost. Within a few weeks, in spring 2015, we adapted our solution to the Formula 1 requirements, allowing Ferrari to compete in Canada with this solution for the first time.”

-Fred Turk,Head of Mahle Motorsport 2016

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/opin ... ine-update


Please note the bolded.

saviour stivala
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by saviour stivala » Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:53 pm

subcritical71 wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:37 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:22 pm
4.10.2:- One ‘direct injector’ per cylinder.
Again, your not using current regulations or even the correct paragraph in your 'quoted' rules.

2018 Regulations (published 7.12.17):

4.10.2 -> Does not exist

5.10.2 There may only be one fuel injector per cylinder and no fuel injectors are permitted upstream
of the intake valves or downstream of the exhaust valves. Only approved parts may be used
and the list of parts approved by the FIA, and the approval procedure, may be found in the
Appendix to the Technical Regulations.

2019 Regulations (published 15.10.18):

4.10.2 -> Does not exist

5.10.2 There may only be one fuel injector per cylinder and no fuel injectors are permitted upstream
of the intake valves or downstream of the exhaust valves. Only approved parts may be used
and the list of parts approved by the FIA, and the approval procedure, may be found in the
Appendix to the Technical Regulations.

https://i.imgur.com/yaxRv2g.jpg
4.10.2 was a missprint, it should have been 15.10.2.

Do not worry about changes in wordings, these present engines are still dircet in-cylinder injected by one injector per cylinder injecting at max 500bar and being installed on cylinder wall from the exhaust side.

trinidefender
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by trinidefender » Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:07 pm

McHonda wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:43 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:34 pm
(1) "aluminum alloy which is either" just keep reading on and you will see why steel pistons are not compatible with technical rules.
(2) no it was not Fred Turk, it was one of the top speculators in the F1 media that pushed the use of Mahle TJI in FI, and he did that within a week of havening first pushed out and than retracted the use of HCCI in F1.
1) There is nothing forbidding the use of steel in pistons as others have now pointed out above.
2) Yes it was Fred Turk and I know you've had the quotes posted to you before because I've done it myself. But just to be sure here it is again...

“The Mahle Motorsports engineers have found the right solution for Scuderia Ferrari. More than five years of development preceded that crucial phone call to Maranello with the proposal: ‘We’ve found an interesting new solution for you.’ Mahle Jet Ignition is the name of the innovation that gives the engines from Maranello a boost. Within a few weeks, in spring 2015, we adapted our solution to the Formula 1 requirements, allowing Ferrari to compete in Canada with this solution for the first time.”

-Fred Turk,Head of Mahle Motorsport 2016

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/opin ... ine-update


Please note the bolded.
The only thing I can add to this is that you have to click a link to another article from the article that you posted.

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/opin ... t-ignition

subcritical71
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Location: USA-Virginia

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by subcritical71 » Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:24 pm

trinidefender wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:07 pm
McHonda wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:43 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:34 pm
(1) "aluminum alloy which is either" just keep reading on and you will see why steel pistons are not compatible with technical rules.
(2) no it was not Fred Turk, it was one of the top speculators in the F1 media that pushed the use of Mahle TJI in FI, and he did that within a week of havening first pushed out and than retracted the use of HCCI in F1.
1) There is nothing forbidding the use of steel in pistons as others have now pointed out above.
2) Yes it was Fred Turk and I know you've had the quotes posted to you before because I've done it myself. But just to be sure here it is again...

“The Mahle Motorsports engineers have found the right solution for Scuderia Ferrari. More than five years of development preceded that crucial phone call to Maranello with the proposal: ‘We’ve found an interesting new solution for you.’ Mahle Jet Ignition is the name of the innovation that gives the engines from Maranello a boost. Within a few weeks, in spring 2015, we adapted our solution to the Formula 1 requirements, allowing Ferrari to compete in Canada with this solution for the first time.”

-Fred Turk,Head of Mahle Motorsport 2016

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/opin ... ine-update


Please note the bolded.
The only thing I can add to this is that you have to click a link to another article from the article that you posted.

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/opin ... t-ignition
Even better, go to the original source material so we can remove the opinions of the author (this report is cited as the source in Mark Hughes' article);

Mahle 2015 Annual Report;
https://www.mahle.com/media/global/inve ... 15_web.pdf

Relevant info starting on Page 16, quoted material on page 19.

subcritical71
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Location: USA-Virginia

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by subcritical71 » Wed Dec 12, 2018 10:48 pm

saviour stivala wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:53 pm
subcritical71 wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:37 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:22 pm
4.10.2:- One ‘direct injector’ per cylinder.
Again, your not using current regulations or even the correct paragraph in your 'quoted' rules.

2018 Regulations (published 7.12.17):

4.10.2 -> Does not exist

5.10.2 There may only be one fuel injector per cylinder and no fuel injectors are permitted upstream
of the intake valves or downstream of the exhaust valves. Only approved parts may be used
and the list of parts approved by the FIA, and the approval procedure, may be found in the
Appendix to the Technical Regulations.

2019 Regulations (published 15.10.18):

4.10.2 -> Does not exist

5.10.2 There may only be one fuel injector per cylinder and no fuel injectors are permitted upstream
of the intake valves or downstream of the exhaust valves. Only approved parts may be used
and the list of parts approved by the FIA, and the approval procedure, may be found in the
Appendix to the Technical Regulations.

https://i.imgur.com/yaxRv2g.jpg
4.10.2 was a missprint, it should have been 15.10.2.

Do not worry about changes in wordings, these present engines are still dircet in-cylinder injected by one injector per cylinder injecting at max 500bar and being installed on cylinder wall from the exhaust side.


So now it’s 15.10.2.... And wording doesn’t matter...

trinidefender
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Joined: Fri Apr 19, 2013 7:37 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by trinidefender » Wed Dec 12, 2018 11:31 pm

subcritical71 wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 10:48 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:53 pm
subcritical71 wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:37 pm


Again, your not using current regulations or even the correct paragraph in your 'quoted' rules.

2018 Regulations (published 7.12.17):

4.10.2 -> Does not exist

5.10.2 There may only be one fuel injector per cylinder and no fuel injectors are permitted upstream
of the intake valves or downstream of the exhaust valves. Only approved parts may be used
and the list of parts approved by the FIA, and the approval procedure, may be found in the
Appendix to the Technical Regulations.

2019 Regulations (published 15.10.18):

4.10.2 -> Does not exist

5.10.2 There may only be one fuel injector per cylinder and no fuel injectors are permitted upstream
of the intake valves or downstream of the exhaust valves. Only approved parts may be used
and the list of parts approved by the FIA, and the approval procedure, may be found in the
Appendix to the Technical Regulations.

https://i.imgur.com/yaxRv2g.jpg
4.10.2 was a missprint, it should have been 15.10.2.

Do not worry about changes in wordings, these present engines are still dircet in-cylinder injected by one injector per cylinder injecting at max 500bar and being installed on cylinder wall from the exhaust side.


So now it’s 15.10.2.... And wording doesn’t matter...
Those comments are a joke right? SS was the one going on about how important the word "direct" injection is (even though it doesn't mean anything technically) and now has the audacity to say that the wording doesn't matter? :wtf:

More importantly, we now have the smoking gun of the actual MAHLE report stating that they use it.

I wonder how it is going to be refuted this time.

More on topic....has there been any news about Honda in 2019?

Dr. Acula
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Dr. Acula » Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:34 am

saviour stivala wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:53 pm
4.10.2 was a missprint, it should have been 15.10.2.

Do not worry about changes in wordings, these present engines are still dircet in-cylinder injected by one injector per cylinder injecting at max 500bar and being installed on cylinder wall from the exhaust side.
We don't worry about changes in wordings, because it never changed.
From the 2014 regulations:
5.10.2 There may only be one fuel injector per cylinder and no fuel injectors are permitted upstream of the intake valves or downstream of the exhaust valves. Only approved parts may be used and the list of parts approved by the FIA, and the approval procedure, may be found in the Appendix to the Technical Regulations.
So the wording is exactly the same since day 1 of the Turbo-Hybrid formula regarding fuel injection. There is no mention of "direct injection" and never was.
Yes you end up with something like a "direct injection" but how exactly this is done in the end is not defined in the rules.

gruntguru
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by gruntguru » Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:56 am

saviour stivala wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 10:19 am
McHonda wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:54 am
Yes and Yes.
. . . .
(2) 5.10.1 500 bar max pressure. 5.10.2 One direct injector per cylinder. What I can see is ‘in-cylinder wall from exhaust side inserted injectors. What I can see in the Mahle TJI pre-combustion chamber is both the injector and the plug are inserted inside the pre-combustion chamber.
Because of the "One injector per cylinder" rule the F1 engines use a modified version of TJI - not the version shown in Mahle literature.

- The injector is in the side of the combustion chamber as you stated.
- The pre-chamber is in the centre of the chamber roof, surrounded by the intake and exhaust valves.
- The spark plug gap is in the pre-chamber.
je suis charlie

saviour stivala
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by saviour stivala » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:07 am

The FIA did not start writing rules/regulations with the advent of the new 2014 1.6l turbo hybrid power unit. There is a difference between a new rule and a rule change, adding or subtracting things to that rule. Starting 2014 formula 1 regulations shifted drastically. Drastic changes to ICE combustion system introducing “direct injection” (DI). Up to 2013 only port (MPFI) injection at max 100 bar fueling system was allowed, “5.10.2 only one fuel injector per cylinder which must inject directly into the side or top of inlet port”. So position of injector was limited to upper side (upstream of inlet port-valve). But for 2014 this restriction is left out. So, while previously direct injection has been specifically excluded with injector positioning limit, starting 2014 it must be the only way to go. Direct injection has been made compulsory. With regulation 5.10.2 now stating “there may be one direct injector per cylinder and no injectors are permitted upstream of intake valve or downstream of exhaust valve. So position of injector is fixed inside cylinder. The above new fueling rule which dictates injector position totally excluded the use of the original Mahle TJI combustion system were both injection and ignition starts combustion in a pre-chamber. But later it was said that a modified version without injector in it was adapted, if it was it is nothing more than a spark-plug masking system, because a compression ratio of 16:1 or more will be very hard pushed to reach combustion chamber space-wise, when taking into consideration the valve events needed to run at 10500RPM max power speed while being able to idle at 4000RPM.
Materials allowed for pistons as described in FIA rule 5.17.1 as aluminum alloy has not changed, and that excludes the use of “iron based” material being used. But added to it is “pistons must respect article 5.16 (material and construction). My previous post about the allowed materials alloyed was lifted from a discourse at a symposium by a Mercedes FI piston specialist around 2012-13.