2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

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RonDennis
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Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:56 pm

Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by RonDennis » Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:16 pm

mclaren111 wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:14 pm
RonDennis wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:38 am
M840TR wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:55 pm
Motorsport reporting former Porsche LMP1 team principal is likely Mclaren bound.

https://www.motorsport.com/formula-e/ne ... 1/4311185/
Would be great news. This guy has a great reputation and looks much more of team boss than Zak Brown.

Zak's role is more of the "big picture" CEO.

So far I like all the changes he's made... Seidl would be a great addition.
I do as well, finally some changes after all these years. Let's hope it's going to work out well.

Nonserviam85
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Joined: Fri May 17, 2013 10:21 am

Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by Nonserviam85 » Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:26 pm

mclaren111 wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:14 pm
RonDennis wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:38 am
M840TR wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:55 pm
Motorsport reporting former Porsche LMP1 team principal is likely Mclaren bound.

https://www.motorsport.com/formula-e/ne ... 1/4311185/
Would be great news. This guy has a great reputation and looks much more of team boss than Zak Brown.

Zak's role is more of the "big picture" CEO.

So far I like all the changes he's made... Seidl would be a great addition.
Seidl will take Boullier's role as a team principal. I would have been more happy if McLaren recruited Porsche LMP1 technical director though...

adrianjordan
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Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2010 10:34 am
Location: West Yorkshire, England

Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by adrianjordan » Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:40 pm

Big Tea wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:16 pm
I was reading an article last night and it claimed that Engineers designers scientists etc now sometimes have a tenancy to believe the model over reality as it id so detailed.

(S)He cited several cases where this happened, and I immediately though of Mclaren and Williams. Apparently the detail is so much more complex controlled and available in the model that it does seem more likely that reality is wrong than the model.

If this does become the mind set I can well understand how a car will not develop properly. I wonder if this is why we are seeing people who are allegedly very good being released?
Very interesting.
In 2007 I had the chance to go to a meet-and-greet with an F1 test driver. I decided not to as I didn't think he'd even amount to much...he was the BMW Sauber test driver and his name was Sebastian Vettel...

RonDennis
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Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:56 pm

Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by RonDennis » Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:17 pm



Some new partners coming aboard.

Nonserviam85
9
Joined: Fri May 17, 2013 10:21 am

Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by Nonserviam85 » Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:55 pm

Big Tea wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:16 pm
I was reading an article last night and it claimed that Engineers designers scientists etc now sometimes have a tenancy to believe the model over reality as it id so detailed.

(S)He cited several cases where this happened, and I immediately though of Mclaren and Williams. Apparently the detail is so much more complex controlled and available in the model that it does seem more likely that reality is wrong than the model.

If this does become the mind set I can well understand how a car will not develop properly. I wonder if this is why we are seeing people who are allegedly very good being released?
From my experience this is a general problem with younger engineers, where they over-rely on simulation/software instead of trying to get an analytical solution based on first principles. After all the model will produce results based on the human inputs.

RonDennis
39
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:56 pm

Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by RonDennis » Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:13 pm

Big Tea wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:16 pm
I was reading an article last night and it claimed that Engineers designers scientists etc now sometimes have a tenancy to believe the model over reality as it id so detailed.

(S)He cited several cases where this happened, and I immediately though of Mclaren and Williams. Apparently the detail is so much more complex controlled and available in the model that it does seem more likely that reality is wrong than the model.

If this does become the mind set I can well understand how a car will not develop properly. I wonder if this is why we are seeing people who are allegedly very good being released?
If the computer doesn't say so, it isn't true. That's how most work these days, but they forget that the car is driven by humans.

marmer
27
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:48 am

Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by marmer » Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:59 am

Nonserviam85 wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:55 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:16 pm
I was reading an article last night and it claimed that Engineers designers scientists etc now sometimes have a tenancy to believe the model over reality as it id so detailed.

(S)He cited several cases where this happened, and I immediately though of Mclaren and Williams. Apparently the detail is so much more complex controlled and available in the model that it does seem more likely that reality is wrong than the model.

If this does become the mind set I can well understand how a car will not develop properly. I wonder if this is why we are seeing people who are allegedly very good being released?
From my experience this is a general problem with younger engineers, where they over-rely on simulation/software instead of trying to get an analytical solution based on first principles. After all the model will produce results based on the human inputs.
if you stare at your naval long enough you can't see that your fat

f1rules
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Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2004 2:34 pm
Location: Denmark

Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by f1rules » Wed Dec 12, 2018 10:48 am

the plot thickens, i really hope he gets onboard
https://www.crash.net/f1/news/911615/1/ ... ula-1-role

RonDennis
39
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:56 pm

Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by RonDennis » Wed Dec 12, 2018 7:22 pm

Image

At least they don't have to worry about the engine.
https://www.mclaren.com/appliedtechnolo ... ling-team/

marmer
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Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:48 am

Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by marmer » Wed Dec 12, 2018 7:48 pm

RonDennis wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 7:22 pm
https://media-mat-cdn.mclaren.com/media ... 9I7362.jpg

At least they don't have to worry about the engine.
https://www.mclaren.com/appliedtechnolo ... ling-team/
They will be saying they have the best bike just bad riders or something to make up for the failure

Ground Effect
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Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:39 am

Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by Ground Effect » Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:02 pm

RonDennis wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 7:22 pm
https://media-mat-cdn.mclaren.com/media ... 9I7362.jpg

At least they don't have to worry about the engine.
https://www.mclaren.com/appliedtechnolo ... ling-team/
:D Good one
Q: (Stefano Mancini – La Stampa) Kimi, will you help Vettel to win his championship this year?
Kimi Raikkonen: I can only drive one car, obviously. 
@2018 Singapore Grand Prix drivers press conference.

strad
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Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 12:57 am

Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by strad » Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:19 pm

When I read this I'm inclined to think that the problem was something very basic in the construction of the car itself....Something so basic that they could look straight at it and not see it.
McLaren has admitted it would have introduced a B-spec version of it's 2018 challenger, the McLaren MCL33, had it discovered its fundamental flaw earlier in the season.
The British team arguably had the second slowest car on average throughout the season despite switching to Renault engines, which it claimed pre-season would allow it to battle for occasional podiums.
That never materialised, with Fernando Alonso's fifth place at the season-opening Australian Grand Prix the highlight of the year. A "fundamental problem" with the MCL33 meant the team were unable to develop it according to McLaren Group chairman Sheikh Mohammed bin Essa Al Khalif.
We're confident we know why we haven't been able to develop this year's car," he is quoted as saying by the BBC. "There is a fundamental problem and we think we've addressed it.
"I don't know if we want to disclose what we have discovered and why, but we have taken steps, and the development of next year's car has helped us understand what went wrong here."
Sheikh Mohammed admitted the problem was discovered too late in the season to properly address it, but had it been uncovered in the opening races, McLaren would have introduced a B-spec car.
"Had we discovered that [problem] in April we would have had a B car," he added. "But it was too late."
McLaren all but abandoned the development of its 2018 car mid-way through the year to instead focus on its successor and has installed a new technical team in place in the hope of turning its fortunes around.
Motorsport without danger is like cooking without salt
Sir Stirling Moss

RonDennis
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Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:56 pm

Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by RonDennis » Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:56 pm

Stella about the problems of the 2018 chassis.

But where had the McLaren engineers gone wrong? Stella explains, "Our 2017 model was a good foundation. We wanted to develop that further. In certain corners, we lost massively to the Red Bulletins in 2017. We wanted to turn off that, but have transferred this weakness to the new car. In retrospect, we've gone too far in some things and created some aerodynamic issues that put us in a dead end. "

The McLaren MCL33 could not maintain the contact pressure in curves over the entire course from turning to accelerating. To keep the downforce reasonably stable, McLaren made do with the mallet method. Bigger wings. They drove the air resistance upwards. And that cost top speed. The McLaren were among the slowest cars on the straight.

With the problem of fluctuating downforce McLaren was not alone. Stella pushes the phenomenon on the wider cars. "The larger front wheels produce greater turbulence than they did before 2017. The main task of aerodynamics today is to get a handle on this turbulence. The wider subsoil exacerbates the problem. Because it contributes more to the overall output than in the past. " According to Stella, this is also the secret of the top teams:" Anyone who manages to control the downforce better over the entire corner is in a different category. "

Like many other teams, McLaren realized that the simulation tools were no longer enough. "We have reached the limits of what a wind tunnel and CFD simulation can do," admits Stella. Therefore McLaren went from the GP Austria to use the first training on Friday as a test session. Parts of the development came to the car, some from the 3D printer, and the two MCL33s were stuffed with sensors to match the correlation between wind tunnel, CFD, and circuitMcLaren Senna in the driving report . "We turned every stone around to find out where the mistake lies," reveals Roberts.

McLaren changed the management during the summer and also changed the design office. At the same time, new measurement methods were developed in Woking to reduce the gap between laboratory and reality. "In fast corners our car was not so bad. Unfortunately there are less and less fast corners. Even Pouhon in Spa is now full without any problems, "summarizes Stella. "Our weakness was mostly in slow corners. And the processes in these curves are incredibly difficult to simulate in the wind tunnel and CFD. "

After the engineers realized that the MCL33 was caught in his concept, they tried to understand the bugs of the 2018 car so as not to run into the same trap in 2019. McLaren did a whole series of experiments to sort out the car's sore spots. Stella describes the difficulties: "These cars are incredibly complex. Even if you only want to test a new front brake ventilation, you need two months for design and production. That is why we have produced many test components in the rapid prototyping process. But often it is not a detail that is to blame but the interplay of many components. In order to get a better overall picture, we have changed our testing procedures. "

Simon Roberts is confident that the designers have understood all the problems. "It was a long process, not the one moment we said: That's exactly it. We could have incorporated some of the insights into the current car, but that would have put pressure on the weight of the car. Therefore, the pace of development in the second half of the season was rather slow. "Stella adds:" It's not that we missed the ideas. The concept itself had its limits. Many changes would not have worked. "
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... en-schief/

Ground Effect
86
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:39 am

Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by Ground Effect » Thu Dec 13, 2018 3:12 pm

RonDennis wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:56 pm
Stella about the problems of the 2018 chassis.

But where had the McLaren engineers gone wrong? Stella explains, "Our 2017 model was a good foundation. We wanted to develop that further. In certain corners, we lost massively to the Red Bulletins in 2017. We wanted to turn off that, but have transferred this weakness to the new car. In retrospect, we've gone too far in some things and created some aerodynamic issues that put us in a dead end. "

The McLaren MCL33 could not maintain the contact pressure in curves over the entire course from turning to accelerating. To keep the downforce reasonably stable, McLaren made do with the mallet method. Bigger wings. They drove the air resistance upwards. And that cost top speed. The McLaren were among the slowest cars on the straight.

With the problem of fluctuating downforce McLaren was not alone. Stella pushes the phenomenon on the wider cars. "The larger front wheels produce greater turbulence than they did before 2017. The main task of aerodynamics today is to get a handle on this turbulence. The wider subsoil exacerbates the problem. Because it contributes more to the overall output than in the past. " According to Stella, this is also the secret of the top teams:" Anyone who manages to control the downforce better over the entire corner is in a different category. "

Like many other teams, McLaren realized that the simulation tools were no longer enough. "We have reached the limits of what a wind tunnel and CFD simulation can do," admits Stella. Therefore McLaren went from the GP Austria to use the first training on Friday as a test session. Parts of the development came to the car, some from the 3D printer, and the two MCL33s were stuffed with sensors to match the correlation between wind tunnel, CFD, and circuitMcLaren Senna in the driving report . "We turned every stone around to find out where the mistake lies," reveals Roberts.

McLaren changed the management during the summer and also changed the design office. At the same time, new measurement methods were developed in Woking to reduce the gap between laboratory and reality. "In fast corners our car was not so bad. Unfortunately there are less and less fast corners. Even Pouhon in Spa is now full without any problems, "summarizes Stella. "Our weakness was mostly in slow corners. And the processes in these curves are incredibly difficult to simulate in the wind tunnel and CFD. "

After the engineers realized that the MCL33 was caught in his concept, they tried to understand the bugs of the 2018 car so as not to run into the same trap in 2019. McLaren did a whole series of experiments to sort out the car's sore spots. Stella describes the difficulties: "These cars are incredibly complex. Even if you only want to test a new front brake ventilation, you need two months for design and production. That is why we have produced many test components in the rapid prototyping process. But often it is not a detail that is to blame but the interplay of many components. In order to get a better overall picture, we have changed our testing procedures. "

Simon Roberts is confident that the designers have understood all the problems. "It was a long process, not the one moment we said: That's exactly it. We could have incorporated some of the insights into the current car, but that would have put pressure on the weight of the car. Therefore, the pace of development in the second half of the season was rather slow. "Stella adds:" It's not that we missed the ideas. The concept itself had its limits. Many changes would not have worked. "

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... en-schief/
Thanks for this
Q: (Stefano Mancini – La Stampa) Kimi, will you help Vettel to win his championship this year?
Kimi Raikkonen: I can only drive one car, obviously. 
@2018 Singapore Grand Prix drivers press conference.

McG
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Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2011 4:45 pm

Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by McG » Thu Dec 13, 2018 7:45 pm

That clears it up then (?).