2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

This forum contains threads to discuss teams themselves. Anything not technical about the cars, including restructuring, performances etc belongs here.
dans79
195
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:33 pm
Location: USA

Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by dans79 » Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:11 pm

Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:00 pm
Except that it isn't a Ferrari/Alfa wing. It's their usual wing sat back so that the front edge is high. Look at the angle of the horizontal elements and tou can see the wing/nose is sat at a nose high angle.
exactly. people are looking at this photo and getting a false representation of how the wing actually looks because of how the shot was taken.
Image


This is what it actually loos like.
Image

GrandAxe
19
Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:06 pm

Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by GrandAxe » Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:14 pm

GPR -A wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:37 am
Phil wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:12 pm
This however does NOT apply to Formula 1 and these Performance Units. The process isnt changing or being developed; it remains the same as a result of the rules in place. This means there will be a point of diminishing returns in which the closer you get to the potential maximum, the smaller/harder the gains will be. In your sd card example, this would be akin to regulating the process and seeing who can cram the most amount of logic into the same fixed physical space. So no, not quite the same.
How does one know what the "potential maximum" within these rules? I am sure, when Renault, Ferrari and Mercedes started the development back in 2012, they all would have thought a certain target as potential maximum for the same exact rules. How did it happen that, Mercedes managed to achieve so much more within the same regulations, than Renault and Ferrari? Some folks looked at things differently and started exploring those possibilities.

Mercedes has revised their architecture for a 3rd time and exploring avenues that were not thought of earlier, within the same rules! If they get constrained by the thought process of diminishing returns, they would be unable to push beyond that.

You lost the logic of the example of SD card I gave, by trying to apply the rules in a wrong sense because there are no written rules. Don't you think, the usability and form factor of an SD card is a limitation with which those designers have to work through and enhance the capabilities? Doesn't that pose the constraints that a rule based governance of a F1 engine does to teams?
I agree with this. There is no such thing as "maximum potential", or to rephrase; one persons "maximum potential" is just the baseline for another's creativity.

Take for instance a team able to come up with a super lightweight material to build their engine out of, or maybe a novel way to build drive trains out of carbon fibre that offers even longer life and greater performance per kg than normal drive trains - suddenly, a new "maximum potential" would have been created ... Well, until a bright spark comes along and pops even that new ceiling to begin another cycle.

The law of diminishing returns is a cage only for teams lacking both inventive minds and the risk takers willing to try out their idea's.

Just_a_fan
471
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by Just_a_fan » Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:07 pm

When it comes to mechanical devices, there is a limit. With petrol engines there is an absolute limit to how much work you can get out of the fuel burned. The hybrid systems will also have an absolute limit to what can be achieved. The rules set out by the FIA will impose a limit that is lower than the theoretical maximum because they preclude many of the strategies that can be used to gain some efficiency.

Diminishing returns very much applies to these systems because you have to pour more resources in to each improvement as you approach the physical limit of the system. £1m might get you an easy extra 50hp at the start of development, later it might only get you 5hp, later still only 1 or 2 hp. That's diminishing returns. That's what it means.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

zibby43
212
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 11:16 am

Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by zibby43 » Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:24 pm

dans79 wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:11 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:00 pm
Except that it isn't a Ferrari/Alfa wing. It's their usual wing sat back so that the front edge is high. Look at the angle of the horizontal elements and tou can see the wing/nose is sat at a nose high angle.
exactly. people are looking at this photo and getting a false representation of how the wing actually looks because of how the shot was taken.
https://cdn-8.motorsport.com/images/amp ... t-wing.jpg


This is what it actually loos like.
https://mediaproxy.tickaroo.com/v3/imag ... ay3folt07m
Perhaps Mercedes has brought multiple wing specs, and people have snapped photos of both. I'm pretty confident that's the case. And people have been conflating some of the photos of the different specs.

There is definitely an updated wing at Melbourne, as can be seen by the clear re-profiling of the flaps here (with the carbon fiber surgery to prove it):


Just_a_fan
471
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by Just_a_fan » Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:45 pm

I agree that there is confusion about what Mercedes have done. They havem't brought an Alfa/Ferrari wing, that much is clear. Looking at the photos you provide, we can see that the point of connection between the top flap and the endplate has not significantly moved downwards - look at the height of the endplate step down and the distance between flap and endplate upper edge. They are pretty much the same. Mercedes have fiddled a bit but not nearly as dramatically as suggested by some.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Mr.G
39
User avatar
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:52 pm
Location: Slovakia

Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by Mr.G » Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:59 pm

Phil wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:12 pm
GPR -A wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:04 pm
What is different in this image? How did the same size evolved to be so large in capacity? Why did someone not say, we have reached the "diminishing returns" in this SD card concept, when they first reached 4GB?

https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1UpnTSXXX ... 40x640.jpg
Because the process has shrunk, therefore the limit is related to how small the tech can become. Same thing with processor manufacturing. The ability of shrinking the process is decreasing, hence once a/the ceiling is reached; other ways will have to be found to pack more logic into the same physical space.

This however does NOT apply to Formula 1 and these Performance Units. The process isnt changing or being developed; it remains the same as a result of the rules in place. This means there will be a point of diminishing returns in which the closer you get to the potential maximum, the smaller/harder the gains will be. In your sd card example, this would be akin to regulating the process and seeing who can cram the most amount of logic into the same fixed physical space. So no, not quite the same.
I dare to disagree - there are new technologies and materials that allows you to do things that you never be able to do before. Multiaxis CNC machines, 3D printing,... advanced technology gives you the opportunity to do the same thing different. Like before CF the chassis were aluminium and if you had asked somebody at that time they would tell you there is no way how the bodywork can be lighter or stronger...

BTW the memory cards are the same, they don't pack "more logic" they updated the technology, it is still silicone, they invented better technology which allowed them to etch smaller structures from the same silicone, then somebody invented that they can stack the structures one on top of another... Now there is trend that NAND FLASH will be replaced by MEMRISTORs which are also on the silicone, with the same etching process but they changed the material that is injected to the silicone...
Art without engineering is dreaming. Engineering without art is calculating. Steven K. Roberts

zibby43
212
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 11:16 am

Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by zibby43 » Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:01 pm

Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:45 pm
I agree that there is confusion about what Mercedes have done. They havem't brought an Alfa/Ferrari wing, that much is clear. Looking at the photos you provide, we can see that the point of connection between the top flap and the endplate has not significantly moved downwards - look at the height of the endplate step down and the distance between flap and endplate upper edge. They are pretty much the same. Mercedes have fiddled a bit but not nearly as dramatically as suggested by some.
Yeah, the people out there trying to represent this FW iteration as a Ferrari/Alfa wing are a little wide of the mark.

It's definitely not that extreme. It's a step toward trying a more outwash-conducive flap profile (instead of needing the entire range of the profile for maximum downforce), but a small one at this point.

They must've liked something they saw in the sims with this tweak.

atanatizante
32
User avatar
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:33 pm

Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by atanatizante » Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:35 pm

According to Matt Youson, I quote:
"Announced last year as a ‘planned transition’, Engineering Director Aldo Costa is stepping back into a consulting role, with a promotion for Chief Designer John Owen, and Performance Director Mark Ellis is taking a sabbatical, with Head of Vehicle Dynamics Loïc Serra stepping up. "
"I don`t have all the answers. Try Google!"
Jesus

Phil
393
User avatar
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:22 pm

Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by Phil » Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:30 am

Mr.G wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:59 pm
I dare to disagree - there are new technologies and materials that allows you to do things that you never be able to do before. Multiaxis CNC machines, 3D printing,... advanced technology gives you the opportunity to do the same thing different.
Yes thank you for pointing that out, i am indeed quite well aware of that. However the point i was making that you missed out on, is that F1 is tightly regulated, especially in regards to these PUs. Therefore it’s not so much comparable to SD cards (or any other type of storage or processor manufacturing). As has been pointed out, diminishing returns do apply and will, given the improvements that can be still made will decrease with every iteration and also as a result of the regulators tightning the regulations further, closing loop holes etc.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
#Team44 supporter

Polarit
0
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:18 am

Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by Polarit » Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:15 am

I don't like stating, especially in F1 that we're reaching the limit because there's always more to learn, exploit or a loop hole to go through.

The talk over the summer with Petronos and their work on fuel mixtures and the new engine seems if the performance increases are to believed quite impressive. Especially when you look back 5 years ago to how the switch to 1.6 engines was greeted. We'll see how much of an effect that has this weekend I guess.

Mr.G
39
User avatar
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:52 pm
Location: Slovakia

Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by Mr.G » Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:52 am

Phil wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:30 am
Mr.G wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:59 pm
I dare to disagree - there are new technologies and materials that allows you to do things that you never be able to do before. Multiaxis CNC machines, 3D printing,... advanced technology gives you the opportunity to do the same thing different.
Yes thank you for pointing that out, i am indeed quite well aware of that. However the point i was making that you missed out on, is that F1 is tightly regulated, especially in regards to these PUs. Therefore it’s not so much comparable to SD cards (or any other type of storage or processor manufacturing). As has been pointed out, diminishing returns do apply and will, given the improvements that can be still made will decrease with every iteration and also as a result of the regulators tightning the regulations further, closing loop holes etc.
Have you seen the new blown wheel hub from Ferrari? FIA wanted to "close" blown axles and now they discovered blown wheel hub which allows even more air trough the wheel than the blown axle... Regulation or not, those people live for finding new paths and exploring/exploiting any opportunities to make their car faster...
Art without engineering is dreaming. Engineering without art is calculating. Steven K. Roberts

Phil
393
User avatar
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:22 pm

Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by Phil » Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:25 am

I know, i was however talking exlusively about the engine though. I did say that for finding more performance, teams will be thinking outside the box and that the “package” will be ever as important. A bit like Mercedes PU changes this year that has supposedly given them aerodynamic gains by the new packaging.

I think Dans79 pointed it out nicely before in this topic; dininishing returns doesnt mean that there are no improvements to be found, just that the gains are becoming smaller and more difficult (aka more expensive) to find. Imagine a curve instead of a linear graph. This means inevitably, the pack will come closer as a result, even if they have the same development rate but are 2 years behind.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
#Team44 supporter

PhillipM
310
Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 2:18 pm
Location: Over the road from Boothy...

Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by PhillipM » Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:50 pm

Mr.G wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:52 am
Have you seen the new blown wheel hub from Ferrari? FIA wanted to "close" blown axles and now they discovered blown wheel hub which allows even more air trough the wheel than the blown axle... Regulation or not, those people live for finding new paths and exploring/exploiting any opportunities to make their car faster...
They didn't discover anything, teams have always blown bypass air around the cake tins to control tyre temperatures. Blow axles was high speed air that didn't interfere with anything else so that was the prefered route, that's all.

Unc1eM0nty
5
User avatar
Joined: Sat Feb 01, 2014 2:18 pm
Location: Yorkshire (Gods own county)

Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by Unc1eM0nty » Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:16 pm

We've seen the law of diminishing returns in action in during this hybrid era, Mercedes hit the ground running with what was it, a 40hp to 60hp advantage over the other engine makers, whats the gap now to Ferrari now, nothing, has it been reversed ?

Everyone accepts that the engineers at Brixworth are very tallented, have they been sat on their behinds for the last few year while everyone caught up ? No of course not.

I agree that ther are no limits, however, the incremental gains get smaller and smaller.

Mercedes started with a better engine, the technolodgy and design were more mature, hence they have less room to work with

Avocado
29
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:03 pm

Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by Avocado » Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:59 pm

Another WDC and WCC. 2020 will be the same. And then they'll have another rocket in 2021, I'm sure.

Congrats.