Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
MtthsMlw
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by MtthsMlw » Tue Apr 02, 2019 2:11 pm

Marble wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:18 pm
MtthsMlw wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 3:44 pm

https://i.redd.it/7c7f8vyxxfp21.png

Here is a graph from Melbourne. Quite different, no power boost.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D2uWntiWkAASoT6.jpg
via funoanalisitecnica.com
Both graphs were found on funoanalisitecnica ? Can't find the articles, could you help please ?
Took them from @SmilexTech Twitter, can't find the one from Bahrain anymore though.

djones
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by djones » Tue Apr 02, 2019 2:56 pm

munudeges wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:46 pm
We'll see what protests Merc come out with, or if something more covert goes on like last year. Mercedes will definitely know what's going on here, because the Ferrari advantage is all engine.
Totally disagree.

Any difference in straight line speed (when in like for like engine modes) is less wing on the Ferrari.

The bottom line is points make champions, be that driver of constructor. Mercedes are 1-2 in the drivers and ahead by nearly double the points in the constructors. It does not really mater if the Ferrari is faster if its a repeat of the last few seasons in terms of other factors like reliability, mistakes and internal politics.

nico5
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by nico5 » Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:48 pm

erikejw wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:43 pm
MtthsMlw wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 3:44 pm
Though this graph from Q3 shows it's just like last year with Ferrari having an advantage starting at around 225km/h.
It's even bigger this year. This wasn't the case in Melbourne so it seems that Ferrari only now turned the engine up to its limit.

Toto Wolff: "With lower drag, you're only gaining a tenth at most. That's sheer engine power."

From AMuS:
The engineers had jumped into their analyses right after the training. First statement: "Ferrari gains on us on the straights with and without DRS. So it has nothing to do with drag." Second finding: "During the test drives in Barcelona we were on a par in terms of power. In Melbourne we were slightly ahead. In Bahrain they were clearly superior to us. The outlier was Melbourne. Something must have gone dramatically wrong with Ferrari."
[...]
"They beat us at the beginning of the straight with more power and in the second half because they don't switch off the MGU-K as early as we do. Our speed curve flattens out in the end. Ferrari's continues to rise."
https://i.redd.it/7c7f8vyxxfp21.png

Here is a graph from Melbourne. Quite different, no power boost.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D2uWntiWkAASoT6.jpg
via funoanalisitecnica.com
I think this trace is faulty or changed to misrepresent reality.

The curve seems shifted later in the lap, that will make Ferraris look faster speedwise than they really are.

Reasons, the further in on the lap the earlier LeClerc uses DRS compared to Hamilton. The start of applying DRS should overlap.

The speed differential over the finish line is larger than the measured 3 kph.

Early in the lap LeC outbreaks Ham, next stop they are equal, then Hamilton starts to outbreak LeC at every corner unless we assume its timeshifted.

It looks like Hamilton earn all time during breaking and LeC eats it back on the straights.

But in reality they are matched in breaking and on the straights, if we correct the readings and assume they are timeshifted.

I wonder who provided the charts to Amus and the reasons for it? Maybe some entity wants to spin the story that the Ferrari engine is more powerful than it is, maybe it is an honest mistake. In the world of F1 there are many layers to uncover :) every advantage is a step towards victory.
Not really true. The only discrepancies in DRS use are Lewis shutting it later on T11 entry and opening it later on the main straight.

In T11, as you can see Charles shuts it before braking while Lewis does not until he hits the brakes, which is later. Just look at the 50m board on the right.
https://imgur.com/vHSRdNU
https://imgur.com/QvFtqyO

On the main straights Lewis just opens it later. You can see that from the distance to the pit wall or the panoramic wheel on the left. Just his mistake, nothing strange with that. If you check the reference time on the dashboard from Juzh's videos, he loses a few hundred right before the finish line on his previous best. Also they open DRS at the same speed (270kphs) which Lewis reaches later and that's why he carries the deficit of 3kphs to the FL.
https://imgur.com/aFTch4K
https://imgur.com/q9nPoZQ

Also, speeds on the straight for both drivers seem fairly consistent with the graphic. Leclerc carries 5kphs more until Ferrari's speed tails off at the end. Which is also why he is able to brake later on that occasion only: his speed approaching the braking zone is similar to Hamilton's whereas on the other three stretches, it's always 3/4kphs higher.
https://imgur.com/tlpwCtd
https://imgur.com/rlMNrLB
https://imgur.com/LcDfF1V
https://imgur.com/fVYGgWy

Unless you wanna dispute that DRS telemetry is also wrong...

munudeges
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by munudeges » Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:57 pm

djones wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 2:56 pm
Any difference in straight line speed (when in like for like engine modes) is less wing on the Ferrari.
Not to the tune of something like four tenths alone I'm afraid. That is simply too large.

Juzh
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Juzh » Tue Apr 02, 2019 4:28 pm

nico5 wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:48 pm
erikejw wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:43 pm
MtthsMlw wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 3:44 pm
Though this graph from Q3 shows it's just like last year with Ferrari having an advantage starting at around 225km/h.
It's even bigger this year. This wasn't the case in Melbourne so it seems that Ferrari only now turned the engine up to its limit.

Toto Wolff: "With lower drag, you're only gaining a tenth at most. That's sheer engine power."

From AMuS:
The engineers had jumped into their analyses right after the training. First statement: "Ferrari gains on us on the straights with and without DRS. So it has nothing to do with drag." Second finding: "During the test drives in Barcelona we were on a par in terms of power. In Melbourne we were slightly ahead. In Bahrain they were clearly superior to us. The outlier was Melbourne. Something must have gone dramatically wrong with Ferrari."
[...]
"They beat us at the beginning of the straight with more power and in the second half because they don't switch off the MGU-K as early as we do. Our speed curve flattens out in the end. Ferrari's continues to rise."
https://i.redd.it/7c7f8vyxxfp21.png

Here is a graph from Melbourne. Quite different, no power boost.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D2uWntiWkAASoT6.jpg
via funoanalisitecnica.com
I think this trace is faulty or changed to misrepresent reality.

The curve seems shifted later in the lap, that will make Ferraris look faster speedwise than they really are.

Reasons, the further in on the lap the earlier LeClerc uses DRS compared to Hamilton. The start of applying DRS should overlap.

The speed differential over the finish line is larger than the measured 3 kph.

Early in the lap LeC outbreaks Ham, next stop they are equal, then Hamilton starts to outbreak LeC at every corner unless we assume its timeshifted.

It looks like Hamilton earn all time during breaking and LeC eats it back on the straights.

But in reality they are matched in breaking and on the straights, if we correct the readings and assume they are timeshifted.

I wonder who provided the charts to Amus and the reasons for it? Maybe some entity wants to spin the story that the Ferrari engine is more powerful than it is, maybe it is an honest mistake. In the world of F1 there are many layers to uncover :) every advantage is a step towards victory.
Not really true. The only discrepancies in DRS use are Lewis shutting it later on T11 entry and opening it later on the main straight.

In T11, as you can see Charles shuts it before braking while Lewis does not until he hits the brakes, which is later. Just look at the 50m board on the right.
https://imgur.com/vHSRdNU
https://imgur.com/QvFtqyO

On the main straights Lewis just opens it later. You can see that from the distance to the pit wall or the panoramic wheel on the left. Just his mistake, nothing strange with that. If you check the reference time on the dashboard from Juzh's videos, he loses a few hundred right before the finish line on his previous best. Also they open DRS at the same speed (270kphs) which Lewis reaches later and that's why he carries the deficit of 3kphs to the FL.
https://imgur.com/aFTch4K
https://imgur.com/q9nPoZQ

Also, speeds on the straight for both drivers seem fairly consistent with the graphic. Leclerc carries 5kphs more until Ferrari's speed tails off at the end. Which is also why he is able to brake later on that occasion only: his speed approaching the braking zone is similar to Hamilton's whereas on the other three stretches, it's always 3/4kphs higher.
https://imgur.com/tlpwCtd
https://imgur.com/rlMNrLB
https://imgur.com/LcDfF1V
https://imgur.com/fVYGgWy

Unless you wanna dispute that DRS telemetry is also wrong...
I made those clips from where you took the screenshots so I can tell you the DRS graphic can't be 100% relied upon for such precise measurements, it's in the ballpark of 0.04-0.12s, but not perfectly aligned in most cases. You have to look at the DRS indicator lights on the steering wheel lights to be 100% sure.
Speed on the telemetry can be synced very accurately on the ferrari because you can see the speed on steering wheel as well, but not on the mercedes. I eyeballed it to probably within 2-3 frames, but it's impossible to tell for certain. So while the numbers shown are correct, the exact place on the track where the car achieved those speeds can't be verified to 100% accuracy.

I hope i made it clear enough lol :lol:

hape
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by hape » Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:00 pm

djones wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 2:56 pm
munudeges wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:46 pm
We'll see what protests Merc come out with, or if something more covert goes on like last year. Mercedes will definitely know what's going on here, because the Ferrari advantage is all engine.
Totally disagree.

Any difference in straight line speed (when in like for like engine modes) is less wing on the Ferrari.

The bottom line is points make champions, be that driver of constructor. Mercedes are 1-2 in the drivers and ahead by nearly double the points in the constructors. It does not really mater if the Ferrari is faster if its a repeat of the last few seasons in terms of other factors like reliability, mistakes and internal politics.
And how does this last paragraph help our technical discussions?
Btw: It’s Toto himself stating Ferrari’s PU has more juice.

djones
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by djones » Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:41 am

hape wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:00 pm

And how does this last paragraph help our technical discussions?
Btw: It’s Toto himself stating Ferrari’s PU has more juice.
And how does your first sentence? Get off your high horse.

Toto over the years is the biggest mis-director of information of all the team principals. It is literally not worth listening to anything he says when he compares cars/teams.

If there is a quote somewhere from another team saying the Ferrari has the most power, then I will start to believe it.

Redbull last year said Ferrari was the most powerful, then near the end of the season they said hey had lost the 'magic' after the sensor addition. So fair enough, Redbull actually told the truth and it matched up with what we saw at the races.

saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by saviour stivala » Wed Apr 03, 2019 12:59 pm

djones wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:41 am
hape wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:00 pm

And how does this last paragraph help our technical discussions?
Btw: It’s Toto himself stating Ferrari’s PU has more juice.
And how does your first sentence? Get off your high horse.

Toto over the years is the biggest mis-director of information of all the team principals. It is literally not worth listening to anything he says when he compares cars/teams.

If there is a quote somewhere from another team saying the Ferrari has the most power, then I will start to believe it.

Redbull last year said Ferrari was the most powerful, then near the end of the season they said hey had lost the 'magic' after the sensor addition. So fair enough, Redbull actually told the truth and it matched up with what we saw at the races.
You better start believing it then, as everybody in the paddock says that the FERRARI power unit is the most powerful.

foofykid
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by foofykid » Wed Apr 03, 2019 1:23 pm

Has anyone watched and listened to the on broads from the last race. Listen closely this engine is a mess its sounds like there are still a bunch of issues with possibly software/ hardware. With in a few laps the engine will surge in some areas mostly in the straights. I feel like the engine all of a sudden will get burst of energy, it will also sound like its losing energy in some parts of the track. People were noticing that before in Australia so i still think there is something up with this engine.

JPBD1990
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by JPBD1990 » Wed Apr 03, 2019 2:27 pm

foofykid wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 1:23 pm
Has anyone watched and listened to the on broads from the last race. Listen closely this engine is a mess its sounds like there are still a bunch of issues with possibly software/ hardware. With in a few laps the engine will surge in some areas mostly in the straights. I feel like the engine all of a sudden will get burst of energy, it will also sound like its losing energy in some parts of the track. People were noticing that before in Australia so i still think there is something up with this engine.
Tbh, I think that’s just the broadcasting/coverage. This season they’ve mad heaps of mismatched audio, out of sync audio, or just outright missing audio. You say people mentioned this before Australia, but I’m not aware? Do you have a source?

But if it is from FOM/world feed, I think it’s the broadcasts fault not the engine

foofykid
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by foofykid » Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:29 pm

JPBD1990 wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 2:27 pm
foofykid wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 1:23 pm
Has anyone watched and listened to the on broads from the last race. Listen closely this engine is a mess its sounds like there are still a bunch of issues with possibly software/ hardware. With in a few laps the engine will surge in some areas mostly in the straights. I feel like the engine all of a sudden will get burst of energy, it will also sound like its losing energy in some parts of the track. People were noticing that before in Australia so i still think there is something up with this engine.
Tbh, I think that’s just the broadcasting/coverage. This season they’ve mad heaps of mismatched audio, out of sync audio, or just outright missing audio. You say people mentioned this before Australia, but I’m not aware? Do you have a source?

But if it is from FOM/world feed, I think it’s the broadcasts fault not the engine
Someone on reddit F1 posted an big well made article on what i am talking about. I am unsure about the rules here for me to post info from another source (reddit).

3jawchuck
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by 3jawchuck » Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:33 pm

foofykid wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:29 pm
Someone on reddit F1 posted an big well made article on what i am talking about. I am unsure about the rules here for me to post info from another source (reddit).
Post the link.
“There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.” --Ernest Hemingway

zibby43
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by zibby43 » Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:29 pm

I believe this is the article in question:

https://www.f1analisitecnica.com/2019/0 ... o.html?m=1

Summary (credit to user CyberDab for this translation)

- Ferrari's power advantage is down to the MGU-H (better recovery). They're able to deploy more over the course of one lap (relative to Merc).

- The MGU-H is unreliable. Because Ferrari’s power advantage is derived from the MGU-H (rather than the ICE, compared to Merc), the MGU-H is being stressed more. If something interferes with or hinders the MGU-H, the consequences (in terms of power loss percentage) are significant.

- Supposedly, Ferrari experienced 2 failures in testing that were very similar to the one LEC experienced in Bahrain.

richardn
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by richardn » Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:08 am

saviour stivala wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 5:15 am
“miss combustion in one cylinder” means misfiring or incomplete combustion or no combustion, but the engine not only ran for a considerable number of laps in that condition, but it finished the race and was still running till driver parked-up and switched off. A malfunctioning cylinder of the FERRARI F1 ICE can contribute to as much as 140 bhp less.
Do you think the Ferrari explanation credible? On the audio of LEC's team radio posted on the team thread, the engineer clearly says the issue is the H-recovery, then they're talking about fuel saving. If you weren't getting combustion out of a cylinder they'd cut the fuel flow to it and wouldn't need to save fuel. The engine sounded OK. There are a few reasons to doubt it.

NL_Fer
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by NL_Fer » Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:52 am

If the ICE is compromised by a faulty cilinder, the the amount of energy that can be recovered will decrease also.

Second, with a failty cilinder maybe, to reduce stress, they would lower turbo pressure and run less lean als an result.

This would also lower mgu-h recovery.

Remember they run at more than 3 bar of boost under normaal circumstances.