2019 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 12-14

For ease of use, there is one thread per grand prix where you can discuss everything during that specific GP weekend. You can find these threads here.
marvin78
14
Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2016 8:33 am

Re: 2019 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 12-14

Post by marvin78 » Sat Apr 13, 2019 12:41 pm

I must say: Kudos to Mercedes. They seem to have a hell of a car again. I am really surprised that they can hold this level of developement over so many years. It's a really big thing that is going on therre. It's a pitty that they always talk themelves down. They are by far the best at the whole package and everyone should know that by know. Absolutely impressive. Dominating such a long aera is new. And there seems to be no end for that.

Restomaniac
3
Joined: Mon May 16, 2016 12:09 am
Location: Hull

Re: 2019 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 12-14

Post by Restomaniac » Sat Apr 13, 2019 12:47 pm

GPR -A wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 12:31 pm
Restomaniac wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 12:14 pm
The thing is that if they start bolting downforce on then how much of their straight line advantage will they lose?
First off, Bahrain and China are actually, relatively low downforce circuits! China is so much more front limited and doesn't demand a whole lot from the rear.

If NIco's statement there is believable, then one would have to start thinking if they have the right front wing philosophy. The reason why I am wondering is, the car has to be balanced on front and rear downforce, which is probably the case for NOW. Trying to simply enhance the rear downforce and not having a balanced amount of front downforce, would make the car more understeery. As it is, the Ferrari cars of the past 2 years and this one, have an inherent understeer. They already have higher AoA on their front wing, compared to Mercedes and any more, would create more drag and mess up flow downstream.

I have a feeling that, they probably have overestimated the downforce level that can be extracted from their rear wing. May be because of that, the rest of the rear of the car probably is producing less downforce than Mercedes.

The problem is, Ferrari haven't shown great deal of in-season development in the past seasons and if this in fact is something, then you don't put a lot of money on them coming out flying for the rest of the season.
Yep, it’s like they have made their car as fast as posssible in a straight line and just totally misjudged what they need to actually turn corners. That’s why I’m questioning the whole ‘Super-duper powerful engine’ argument. If Mercedes had shown the same problems in cornering then it may be more valid.

If as you say we have the same in-season developments as previous seasons then it’s already done bar the shouting.
Last edited by Restomaniac on Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Restomaniac
3
Joined: Mon May 16, 2016 12:09 am
Location: Hull

Re: 2019 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 12-14

Post by Restomaniac » Sat Apr 13, 2019 12:58 pm

marvin78 wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 12:41 pm
I must say: Kudos to Mercedes. They seem to have a hell of a car again. I am really surprised that they can hold this level of developement over so many years. It's a really big thing that is going on therre. It's a pitty that they always talk themelves down. They are by far the best at the whole package and everyone should know that by know. Absolutely impressive. Dominating such a long aera is new. And there seems to be no end for that.
To put it in context, previously no team had ever gone through a major reg change and kept their title. Mercedes have done once and are looking like pulling it off again!

aleks_ader
74
User avatar
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 7:40 am

Re: 2019 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 12-14

Post by aleks_ader » Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:15 pm

It seems. Funny or not. The only way to stop the Mers is just leave the regs untouched. And let the law of diminishing returns turn its ugly face again. Just like in PU department. Kudos to their tech team.
"And if you no longer go for a gap that exists, you're no longer a racing driver..." Ayrton Senna

GPR-A
88
User avatar
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:08 pm

Re: 2019 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 12-14

Post by GPR-A » Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:25 pm

Restomaniac wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 12:58 pm
marvin78 wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 12:41 pm
I must say: Kudos to Mercedes. They seem to have a hell of a car again. I am really surprised that they can hold this level of developement over so many years. It's a really big thing that is going on therre. It's a pitty that they always talk themelves down. They are by far the best at the whole package and everyone should know that by know. Absolutely impressive. Dominating such a long aera is new. And there seems to be no end for that.
To put it in context, previously no team had ever gone through a major reg change and kept their title. Mercedes have done once and are looking like pulling it off again!
I have said this in the past and say it again. It's the depth that this team has in their ranks and the culture that the management has cultivated in the organization. They have not created a team around an individual's ideas, but have allowed individuals to bring their ideas. Brawn left, then Bob Bell left then Paddy Lowe left and now Aldo Costa has retired (albeit he is consulting mode now). Essentially, this team is not dependent upon the executive management and have the strength to conceive newer ideas for the car, go ahead and build them. Most importantly, as Toto has been mentioning, "See it, say it, fix it" culture has allowed people to express themselves well. The secure atmosphere where there is no witch hunting on failures, allows them to come back stronger, every time there is a hiccup. The heroes are most likely people whose names we don't know.

Morteza
1888
User avatar
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:23 pm
Location: Bushehr, Iran

Re: 2019 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 12-14

Post by Morteza » Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:34 pm

Image
"A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool."~William Shakespeare

MtthsMlw
687
User avatar
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2017 5:38 pm
Location: Germany

Re: 2019 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 12-14

Post by MtthsMlw » Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:43 pm

So Giovinazzi had the same problem as Leclerc in Bahrain. They'll now change his CE for the race as well to an older spec, Kimi will stick to the current one according to motorsport.com.

Carl Mccoy
0
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:31 pm

Re: 2019 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 12-14

Post by Carl Mccoy » Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:48 pm

0.3s is not an eternity. The soft tires at Ferrari were already dead at the end of the lap.

JordanMugen
20
User avatar
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:36 pm

Re: 2019 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 12-14

Post by JordanMugen » Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:49 pm

Restomaniac wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 12:58 pm
To put it in context, previously no team had ever gone through a major reg change and kept their title. Mercedes have done once and are looking like pulling it off again!
You mean the 2017 and 2019 aero changes respectively?

While superficially major, 2017 were specifically designed as a rescaling of the existing 2016 cars AFAIK... even the relative proportions of the front and rear tyres were maintained at the same ratio.

The 2019 front wing change is quite minor, and most teams have similar overall concepts as before.

dfegan358
-2
Joined: Tue May 29, 2018 1:16 am

Re: 2019 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 12-14

Post by dfegan358 » Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:50 pm

Vettel team radio after qualifying “ we had it , we had it. “ then “we know why though”

Any ideas to what he is getting at? Seen somewhere else referring to poor outlap management by the pit wall.

I’m not convinced. Something could going we don’t know about it. Obviously a problem with the CE as Giovinazzi needed his replaced.

Would an older spec CE, like vettel and Leclerc had today affect PU performance?

Restomaniac
3
Joined: Mon May 16, 2016 12:09 am
Location: Hull

Re: 2019 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 12-14

Post by Restomaniac » Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:54 pm

JordanMugen wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:49 pm
Restomaniac wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 12:58 pm
To put it in context, previously no team had ever gone through a major reg change and kept their title. Mercedes have done once and are looking like pulling it off again!
You mean the 2017 and 2019 aero changes respectively?

While superficially major, 2017 were specifically designed as a rescaling of the existing 2016 cars AFAIK... even the relative proportions of the front and rear tyres were maintained at the same ratio.

The 2019 front wing change is quite minor, and most teams have similar overall concepts as before.
Yet no team has ever managed it through similar reg changes no matter how major/minor.

Restomaniac
3
Joined: Mon May 16, 2016 12:09 am
Location: Hull

Re: 2019 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 12-14

Post by Restomaniac » Sat Apr 13, 2019 2:00 pm

GPR -A wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:25 pm
Restomaniac wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 12:58 pm
marvin78 wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 12:41 pm
I must say: Kudos to Mercedes. They seem to have a hell of a car again. I am really surprised that they can hold this level of developement over so many years. It's a really big thing that is going on therre. It's a pitty that they always talk themelves down. They are by far the best at the whole package and everyone should know that by know. Absolutely impressive. Dominating such a long aera is new. And there seems to be no end for that.
To put it in context, previously no team had ever gone through a major reg change and kept their title. Mercedes have done once and are looking like pulling it off again!
I have said this in the past and say it again. It's the depth that this team has in their ranks and the culture that the management has cultivated in the organization. They have not created a team around an individual's ideas, but have allowed individuals to bring their ideas. Brawn left, then Bob Bell left then Paddy Lowe left and now Aldo Costa has retired (albeit he is consulting mode now). Essentially, this team is not dependent upon the executive management and have the strength to conceive newer ideas for the car, go ahead and build them. Most importantly, as Toto has been mentioning, "See it, say it, fix it" culture has allowed people to express themselves well. The secure atmosphere where there is no witch hunting on failures, allows them to come back stronger, every time there is a hiccup. The heroes are most likely people whose names we don't know.
Agreed.

JordanMugen
20
User avatar
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:36 pm

Re: 2019 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 12-14

Post by JordanMugen » Sat Apr 13, 2019 2:13 pm

Restomaniac wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:54 pm
Yet no team has ever managed it through similar reg changes no matter how major/minor.
How about Ferrari maintaining their championships from 2000 to 2001, despite the raised front wing height in 2001? :wink:

Williams also were not troubled by the reduction in rear tyre width and vehicle width from 1992 to 1993.
Last edited by JordanMugen on Sat Apr 13, 2019 2:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

foxmulder_ms
2
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:36 pm

Re: 2019 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 12-14

Post by foxmulder_ms » Sat Apr 13, 2019 2:16 pm

Ham will butcher Bottas tomorrow. Easy win. :)

foxmulder_ms
2
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:36 pm

Re: 2019 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 12-14

Post by foxmulder_ms » Sat Apr 13, 2019 2:17 pm

dfegan358 wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:50 pm
Vettel team radio after qualifying “ we had it , we had it. “ then “we know why though”

Any ideas to what he is getting at? Seen somewhere else referring to poor outlap management by the pit wall.

I’m not convinced. Something could going we don’t know about it. Obviously a problem with the CE as Giovinazzi needed his replaced.

Would an older spec CE, like vettel and Leclerc had today affect PU performance?
Yeah, Ferrari might have a little more. Their outlab was quicker than merc I believe.