Scuderia Ferrari SF90

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter does not belong here.
mmred
-4
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:19 pm

Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by mmred » Mon Apr 15, 2019 12:28 am

ringo wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 12:16 am
mmred wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 9:44 pm
djones wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 8:42 pm


If the Ferrari/Alfa concept is indeed geared towards low downforce on purpose then it will only ever be a one trick pony.

Not just a new front/rear wing would be needed, but an entirely new spec of car with the traditional concept of Mercedes and Redbull.

I.e. This season is already over for them.

At the last race Ferrari were fastest. But I honestly think this was a case of Mercedes not getting the car working, rather than Ferrari being fast per se.
since the problem is not aero but mechanical grip at low speed you are clearly wrong

look it s the famous english news say: it s been years they always pretend the italians have the worst aero... but if you look closely mostly it was the opposite, at least from 2 years the real problem for the italians are tyres and suspensions while they excel on fast corners where aero is needed. it s most selfexaltation from brit newspapers, just that.

it s always complex to say what is the key factor here, but if you loose on straight it s the engine, if you lose on fast corner it prevails the aero, if you lose on slow corners that s where suspensions are the key, guess what s happening now and deduce the problem
The mechanical grip is good with the Ferrari. Watch the videos in detail. In fact it has better mechanical grip than the mercedes. Where i think it is failing is turn in after braking and mid corner; the front end of the car just isn't strong. When it does leave the corner, it actually accelerates quite well on exit, so i think the grip is fine. The problem is aero balance and maybe overall downforce.

The front wing is designed very high in the middle section between the wheels. This is compensation for the small surface are at the outerpart of the wing. So the wing makes similar downforce as the mercedes front wing, it is just distributed differently. The problem is that it makes the downforce between the wheels and downstream of that is the bargeboards. Maybe what is happening is that this highly cambered wing in the middle is resulting in poorer quality air flow between the fronts wheels and towards the barge boards than is the case with the mercedes.
For mercedes and redbull the downforce of the front wing is evenly distributed across its width, and they dont have this agressively cambered middle section which means they have less disturbed flow going between the wheels and onto the barge baords.
For ferrari to address this, they would require a front wing similar to mercedes, or do some more work on the barge boards.
I think they can roll something out in 4 race's time.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D3YC8x3W0AA ... name=small
edit:
to add to promoting more flow to the barge board area, they can opt for a mercedes type nose tip that is narrow.
we are seeing diferent tracks behaviour
it is fast on the exit but not just right after it and it sacrifies the entry so te overall speed is lower and there at 90 kmh airpin it s not an aero business

will they change frontwing tough? probabl yes... it increases fron tyres drag s what s the overall meaning of it i dont know, but the rest of the aero is fine, even better at fast corners

GrandAxe
19
Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:06 pm

Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by GrandAxe » Mon Apr 15, 2019 12:34 am

mmred wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 2:59 pm
GrandAxe wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 12:01 pm
mmred wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:50 am


the front locks have more to do with brake balance and slowering very much at slow corners

remember they have a problem in slow ones, on fast corners they alread have a bit of advantage instead (barhein...)
so it s a mixed situation,like last year mercedes at the first races, plus the engine advantage , bots allowing, is a better resource merc didnt have last year....

we can see a recover if the aero department delivers
They were locking the inside fronts in order to be able to make the corner - that's understeer. They don't have enough bite to get into corners tightly enough. As for the fast corners, it should serve them well for Monza and Spa.
their understeer was just in slow corners....
points to mechanical issues, connex to front braking

this points to

maybe weight balance transfer due to running higher rake
without the advantage of a stable rear that delivers the downforce at those speed ( so the rear height changes so much that aero stalls and the variation is seen with too much braking on the front but the aero doesnt deliver its downforce)

this points to

can be therefore rear suspension stiffness maybe linked to tyre temp setup see how much leclerc race was lost on a different tyre management that gave vettel more speed after the start

so

the real issue can also be pirelli canging tyre pressure the nx tims in favour of their rivals across all these years
but cars must win wathever happens...like the 2nd benetton ear of schumi or something like that... in the end you win despite every penalt or you just lose
These aren't road cars. In F1, the slower the corner, the more important downforce is; the faster the corner, the more important drag is. It is counter-intutive to road cars.

Its why a street track like Monaco requires high downforce; while Monza, a high speed track that's mostly straights and fast corners requires low downforce.

The Ferrari' cars problem is not having the downforce to cope with slow corners, so it uses up its tyres, goes slower, as a result of which it has even less downforce and tyres get colder - its a vicious cycle.
The solution is either more aero, or as with Merc in the aerly hybrid years, a much more powerful engine than the rest of the field.

Marble
14
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2017 9:30 pm

Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by Marble » Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:20 am

A quote found on twitter, which may contribute to the discussion about the effect of downforce on slow speed corners :
I did a simulation once of a lap around Monaco with no downforce and it was 30-40s slower. Downforce makes the biggest difference in slow speed corners” - James Knapton, Head of Vehicle Science at Red Bull Technolgoies.
And another contribution to that Ferrari speed profile debate found on twitter as well :


QUALI
Image

RACE
Image

Source :
https://twitter.com/F1_Whisperer/
Last edited by Marble on Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:27 am, edited 2 times in total.

mmred
-4
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:19 pm

Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by mmred » Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:23 am

Marble wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:20 am
A quote found on twitter, which may contribute to the discussion about the effect of downforce on slow speed corners :
I did a simulation once of a lap around Monaco with no downforce and it was 30-40s slower. Downforce makes the biggest difference in slow speed corners” - James Knapton, Head of Vehicle Science at Red Bull Technolgoies.
And another contribution to that Ferrari speed profile debate found on twitter as well :


QUALI
https://ibb.co/KDzHNTD

RACE
https://ibb.co/JmYCgcn

Source :
https://twitter.com/F1_Whisperer/
didn know ferrari is running with no downforce, the problem is that what is the reason, grip or aero....
look fast corners and find out

is rosberg right?
or is vettel right?
who drives the car?

if you see at 40 and at 80 you also see fast corners arent an issue, but the opposite: that s not an aero issue so big, b it s china that is the worst track, slow coners really are the issue for this version of ferrari, they need a different aero package and suspension setup that s all, on fast track they wll be invincible

Jozsusz
-5
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:09 am

Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by Jozsusz » Mon Apr 15, 2019 12:18 pm

mmred wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:23 am
Marble wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:20 am
A quote found on twitter, which may contribute to the discussion about the effect of downforce on slow speed corners :
I did a simulation once of a lap around Monaco with no downforce and it was 30-40s slower. Downforce makes the biggest difference in slow speed corners” - James Knapton, Head of Vehicle Science at Red Bull Technolgoies.
And another contribution to that Ferrari speed profile debate found on twitter as well :


QUALI
https://ibb.co/KDzHNTD

RACE
https://ibb.co/JmYCgcn

Source :
https://twitter.com/F1_Whisperer/
didn know ferrari is running with no downforce, the problem is that what is the reason, grip or aero....
look fast corners and find out

is rosberg right?
or is vettel right?
who drives the car?

if you see at 40 and at 80 you also see fast corners arent an issue, but the opposite: that s not an aero issue so big, b it s china that is the worst track, slow coners really are the issue for this version of ferrari, they need a different aero package and suspension setup that s all, on fast track they wll be invincible
Correct me if I'm wrong but Merc were faster in every single corner mate. Even in the fastest.

Big Mangalhit
63
User avatar
Joined: Thu Dec 03, 2015 2:39 pm

Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by Big Mangalhit » Mon Apr 15, 2019 12:55 pm

Jozsusz wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 12:18 pm


Correct me if I'm wrong but Merc were faster in every single corner mate. Even in the fastest.
Especially in the fastest I would say

amr
6
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:18 pm

Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by amr » Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:13 pm

Is it me or the Ferrari have a more negative camber angle on the front left compared with the right one? Also, the camber looks to be a little more than what RedBull or Mercedes have. I suspect they don't have enough downforce on the front so they made the suspension softer and more camber on the left so that they could lean more on it. Problem is the tyre cools faster on the straights. I remember Vettel locking several times at turn 14.
Image
Image
Image
Does anyone know what camber they were running? I know this info need to be submitted to Pirelli.

munudeges
8
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 4:08 pm

Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by munudeges » Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:17 pm

I'm afraid this is what happens when you have a head technical guy who is very much an engine person and has never had his head on the block for a car design in his life. The balance of where this car gets its laptime from is all wrong, and this is basic 101 car design.

munudeges
8
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 4:08 pm

Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by munudeges » Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:19 pm

zibby43 wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:07 pm
I posted this in the Merc thread as well, but the article also has some info. on the Ferrari. According to AMuS, Ferrari can run higher power modes more often over the course of a weekend.
That makes sense. The Ferrari doesn't necessarily have more peak power or performance, but they can take more out of it over a weekend. Now, with the very limited power units available, will that affect reliability over the season?

mmred
-4
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:19 pm

Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by mmred » Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:15 pm

Jozsusz wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 12:18 pm
mmred wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:23 am
Marble wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:20 am
A quote found on twitter, which may contribute to the discussion about the effect of downforce on slow speed corners :


And another contribution to that Ferrari speed profile debate found on twitter as well :


QUALI
https://ibb.co/KDzHNTD

RACE
https://ibb.co/JmYCgcn

Source :
https://twitter.com/F1_Whisperer/
didn know ferrari is running with no downforce, the problem is that what is the reason, grip or aero....
look fast corners and find out

is rosberg right?
or is vettel right?
who drives the car?

if you see at 40 and at 80 you also see fast corners arent an issue, but the opposite: that s not an aero issue so big, b it s china that is the worst track, slow coners really are the issue for this version of ferrari, they need a different aero package and suspension setup that s all, on fast track they wll be invincible
Correct me if I'm wrong but Merc were faster in every single corner mate. Even in the fastest.
you are
te only two fast corners 40 and 80 merc lost

dans79
194
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:33 pm
Location: USA

Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by dans79 » Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:22 pm

mmred wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:15 pm
te only two fast corners 40 and 80 merc lost
I think you need to look at the graph again!

mmred
-4
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:19 pm

Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by mmred » Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:25 pm

dans79 wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:22 pm
mmred wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:15 pm
te only two fast corners 40 and 80 merc lost
I think you need to look at the graph again!
https://ibb.co/KDzHNTD
look at 40 and 85 the only two fast corners over 150
and see the disadvantage getting negative

that s all ican say, grow eyes man
Last edited by mmred on Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

dans79
194
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:33 pm
Location: USA

Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by dans79 » Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:37 pm

mmred wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:25 pm
https://ibb.co/KDzHNTD
look at 40 and 85 the only two fast corners over 150
and see the disadvantage getting negative

that s all ican say, grow eyes man
Look at the velocity graph, The red line being lower means Vettel had to slow more. The only turn Ferrari was faster in (given the resolution of the graph), is turn 12 as you can see at 57ish, and that honestly looks Like a different line more than anything else.

mmred
-4
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:19 pm

Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by mmred » Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:30 pm

dans79 wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:37 pm
mmred wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:25 pm
https://ibb.co/KDzHNTD
look at 40 and 85 the only two fast corners over 150
and see the disadvantage getting negative

that s all ican say, grow eyes man
Look at the velocity graph, The red line being lower means Vettel had to slow more. The only turn Ferrari was faster in (given the resolution of the graph), is turn 12 as you can see at 57ish, and that honestly looks Like a different line more than anything else.
you cant compare like that
you have to check the time under the table, otherwise you are just comparing apex speed that can be lower also for trajectory choices and still lead to faster turn
you ll see that vettel gains in 2 turns the two faster ones at 40 and a bit at 85 , not a big gain, the surprise is the loss is huge in the slowest ones 55, 80, super huge

interestingly you ll see a total different trajectory at 55 that maybe allows a tiny tiny recover or maybe bottas made a mistake in traction there
(vettel is the red one )

richardn
2
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2018 10:45 am

Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by richardn » Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:50 pm

Frank Dernie on Mechanical Grip (possibly slightly off topic, but what I think he means is that any difference in actual mechanical grip differences are absolutely trumped by extra downforce)
Frank Dernie wrote: Not so.
Downforce and engine drivability are all important at Monaco IME. It is surprising how much drag can be put up with for a bit more downforce there. The cars which can generate the most downforce have always been the fastest at Monaco. Mind you some drivers never sussed it, and talk about "mechanical grip".

There was a lot of time in optimising throttle mapping (driver M Schumacher) and I remember Prost asking "why does a bit more rear wing help traction so much in the hairpin?" He had sussed it by feel, so few drivers do. Quite a few engineers never twigged it either, that is why some people never win...

Nico has been impressively fast in Monaco every time he has been there. It will be interesting to see how they get on. Whoever gets pole will almost certainly win, as usual.
Frank Dernie wrote: Yes, the driver probably has a slightly bigger influence at Monaco than at other tracks.
I would have expected McLaren to know about the aero and the fact that mechanical grip doesn't exist per se. Some teams/engineers do not though...
Prost was the first driver I worked with who sussed it for himself.
Last edited by richardn on Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.