2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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Wouter
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by Wouter » Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:37 am

Capharol wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:07 am

yeah well that could be but these are the only 3 newspapers that report about it and they are dutch and 2 out of 3 copied it from the 1st one, which still isn't the biggest source about F1.
I doubt highly that they bring an PU with more power to AZE, but lets wait and see
GPBlog draws the wrong conclusions again as usual! Bad, unreliable site.
Helmut Marko told this to the press. The news is from De Telegraaf:

"Helmut Marko rubs his hands: Twenty HP extra from Honda in Baku".
Red Bull team boss Helmut Marko already confirmed in Shanghai that he had received good news from Honda.
Reportedly, the cars from both Red Bull drivers will then get around 20 horsepower, which on average should amount to a profit of two tenths of a second per lap. "

Nowhere is it said that they get a different/new engine. It could very well be that Mobil comes with the long-awaited new fuel, which would deliver 20HP.

Bill
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by Bill » Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:51 am

If Rbr find 0.3 tenth they could match merc in quali if we assume the don't bring upgrades

Quantum
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by Quantum » Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:53 am

Hammerfist wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 9:43 am
Ground Effect wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 9:35 am
The problem is people assuming after the engine switch, there would be no teething problems. This is kinda like a reset for Red Bull and I think they're doing pretty well, it's unfortunate that their spokesperson instead of being optimistic, but cautious, chose to brag and make all sorts of declarations.
I still believe it's a solid and very impressive start to the partnership, with a large scope for improvement. There"s reason to be positive, Gasly on the other hand.....
The engine switch and integration is not the main problem. They still lack on power, it's evident as the speed traps do show they are among the slowest. Of course Horner and nobody at Redbull is going to blame Honda right now, but Honda still has some catching up to do. Chassis wise, they are no longer the best, but imo are better than Ferrari. Merc has the best chassis this year, there is little question about that.
Have you seen speed trap data from Oz and Bahrain?

Datco
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by Datco » Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:24 am

Edax wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:03 pm
etusch wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:53 pm
Wouter wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:13 pm
For my second claim, I except that saying "issue" to that may not be completely true. But I think it(integration) is not perfect or mature like aero concept and you know they are talking some gains by repacking engine. I think there are somethings they can do or they found out. If it is not big ( hope so) they can fix it/perfect it. If bigger then it perfection will come next year.
You might have a point here. Several people have claimed that the biggest asset of the renault engine was the traction, mainly due to its engine placement, further back than most. Looking back at recent years the RB’ have been optimised around that trait, with aero suspension and gearing. How often have we’ve seen a RB blasting out of a corner to run out of gears at the end of a straight. The last years cars almost looked like they were designed with Singapore in mind.

The Honda engine seems to be a bit different, perhaps forcing RB to rethink their optimization strategy. They now have to design a car around an engine which perhaps is a bit less drivable at the low end but can compete at intermediate and top speeds.

There is no “perfect” package. Just an optimization for some tracks and a compromise for others. I guess RB will need a good part of this year to optimize around a new philosophy.

But that said, I am positively surprised with where they are now.
Honda PU is further back with Turbo at the front. At least that was what STR and McLaren said were challenges that they had to overcome in switching in 2018.

etusch
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Location: Turkey

Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by etusch » Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:34 pm


Marti_EF3
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by Marti_EF3 » Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:20 pm

Race overview

Race pace

Image

Stint 1

Image

Stint 2

Image

Stint 3

Image

Best sectors

Image

Sieper
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Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:19 pm

Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by Sieper » Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:22 pm

Datco wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:24 am
Edax wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:03 pm
etusch wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:53 pm

For my second claim, I except that saying "issue" to that may not be completely true. But I think it(integration) is not perfect or mature like aero concept and you know they are talking some gains by repacking engine. I think there are somethings they can do or they found out. If it is not big ( hope so) they can fix it/perfect it. If bigger then it perfection will come next year.
You might have a point here. Several people have claimed that the biggest asset of the renault engine was the traction, mainly due to its engine placement, further back than most. Looking back at recent years the RB’ have been optimised around that trait, with aero suspension and gearing. How often have we’ve seen a RB blasting out of a corner to run out of gears at the end of a straight. The last years cars almost looked like they were designed with Singapore in mind.

The Honda engine seems to be a bit different, perhaps forcing RB to rethink their optimization strategy. They now have to design a car around an engine which perhaps is a bit less drivable at the low end but can compete at intermediate and top speeds.

There is no “perfect” package. Just an optimization for some tracks and a compromise for others. I guess RB will need a good part of this year to optimize around a new philosophy.

But that said, I am positively surprised with where they are now.
Honda PU is further back with Turbo at the front. At least that was what STR and McLaren said were challenges that they had to overcome in switching in 2018.
Honda has the split turbo concept (like Mercedes) Renault has the entire turbo on the back of the engine, like Ferrari). So indeed the whole Honda engine will likely be a bit further back (as part of the turbo is in front of it). Whilst the Renault can possibly be mounted a bit further forward (but then has the weight of the entire turbo on the back). Apparently the entire Honda unit is smaller sized also, so that might still mean things for weight distribution as well.

Interesting discussion!

NL_Fer
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Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2014 8:48 am

Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by NL_Fer » Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:45 pm

The Renault was mounted closer to the front, but the turbo was a single unit higher and more at the back.

On average it could be the same cog, but maybe it does change the dynamic behaviour of the (complex) suspension.

Edax
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Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2014 9:47 pm

Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by Edax » Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:37 pm

NL_Fer wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:45 pm
The Renault was mounted closer to the front, but the turbo was a single unit higher and more at the back.

On average it could be the same cog, but maybe it does change the dynamic behaviour of the (complex) suspension.
True I think it is more about the weight balance and weight transfer than the COG. But since the engine is about 20% of the dry weight of the car I cannot imagine that such a difference in architecture does not have an impact on certain drivability aspects, such as braking, corner stability and traction.

And while simulation can predict a lot I can imagine that part of it is heading out to the track and see what works and what doesn’t and optimize around that.

GhostF1
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Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 3:11 am

Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by GhostF1 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:17 am

Something else to think about is that with the Renault design, the turbo was physically inside the gearbox housing, this is no long the case with the Honda, so there would be reliability gains to be had there. The overall unit is moved slightly further back correct, but it is much shorter so they can tuck the bodywork tighter at the rear as there is no turbo/MGU-H unit hanging out the back and the MGU-K is one of the smallest units on the field.

Hammerfist
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by Hammerfist » Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:20 am

Quantum wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:53 am
Hammerfist wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 9:43 am
Ground Effect wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 9:35 am
The problem is people assuming after the engine switch, there would be no teething problems. This is kinda like a reset for Red Bull and I think they're doing pretty well, it's unfortunate that their spokesperson instead of being optimistic, but cautious, chose to brag and make all sorts of declarations.
I still believe it's a solid and very impressive start to the partnership, with a large scope for improvement. There"s reason to be positive, Gasly on the other hand.....
The engine switch and integration is not the main problem. They still lack on power, it's evident as the speed traps do show they are among the slowest. Of course Horner and nobody at Redbull is going to blame Honda right now, but Honda still has some catching up to do. Chassis wise, they are no longer the best, but imo are better than Ferrari. Merc has the best chassis this year, there is little question about that.
Have you seen speed trap data from Oz and Bahrain?
Yes. The traps were only high in OZ, but they admittedly didn't run enough downforce there. Then Bahrain and China were low.

NL_Fer
51
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2014 8:48 am

Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by NL_Fer » Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:52 am

Speed traps are worhless. We need the gps acceleration graph, the only way to determine engine power. But we are not allowed to see it.

Maplesoup
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Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:25 pm

Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by Maplesoup » Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:03 am

NL_Fer wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:52 am
Speed traps are worhless. We need the gps acceleration graph, the only way to determine engine power. But we are not allowed to see it.
Agreed, speed traps don't mean much at all due to differing levels of downforce and thus drag on the cars. Mercedes are rarely at the top in speed trap figures but isn't doing them any harm.

Wouter
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by Wouter » Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:26 am

Capharol wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:07 am
seezung wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:39 am
Correct, that why i mentioned "rumoured". Although, wherever there's smoke there's fire ;)
yeah well that could be but these are the only 3 newspapers that report about it and they are dutch and 2 out of 3 copied it from the 1st one, which still isn't the biggest source about F1.
I doubt highly that they bring an PU with more power to AZE, but lets wait and see
Max Verstappen confirmed yesterday on TV that Honda is coming with an upgrade of 20 HP in the next race and the car gets a small upgrade. The major upgrade will come later. The Telegraaf (Dutch paper) therefore had the correct information this time.

When asked whether he is more careful at the start this year, he finally says. “No, up to now I have not had very nice starts. We are still searching a bit with the Honda engine to have very good starts, so that could also be better. ”

Whether Red Bull can be competitive with the updates in Azerbaijan, he does not know. "It's hard to say right now. Anyway, this season I think Mercedes is fast, and then again Ferrari, so it's hard to estimate, it's also a question mark for us."

Bill
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Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:28 am

Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by Bill » Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:50 am

Can this gp acceleration graph give accurate readings if a team like redbull wheel spins and can't put the power down correctly because of poor traction