2019 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 12-14

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selvam_e2002
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Re: 2019 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 12-14

Post by selvam_e2002 » Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:06 pm

Sulman wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:53 pm
I think drivers need firm, respectful management, or bad things will happen. I like how Haas do it. I like how Stewart did it with Cevert; i.e. "It's not your time, but it will be." I wasn't so keen on Schumacher/Barrichello but I think Schumacher/Massa was just about perfect.

An example of how not to do it was Alonso/Hamilton, and latterly Ricciardo/Verstappen.

It isn't Leclerc's time yet, and he's still very young indeed. I'd be looking at him to lead a charge possibly next year, but it all depends on how he performs now.

You can't just throw your lead driver under the bus because his young and shiny teammate has a good weekend or two.
Indeed.

Jolle
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Re: 2019 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 12-14

Post by Jolle » Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:07 pm

Sulman wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:53 pm
I think drivers need firm, respectful management, or bad things will happen. I like how Haas do it. I like how Stewart did it with Cevert; i.e. "It's not your time, but it will be." I wasn't so keen on Schumacher/Barrichello but I think Schumacher/Massa was just about perfect.

An example of how not to do it was Alonso/Hamilton, and latterly Ricciardo/Verstappen.

It isn't Leclerc's time yet, and he's still very young indeed. I'd be looking at him to lead a charge possibly next year, but it all depends on how he performs now.

You can't just throw your lead driver under the bus because his young and shiny teammate has a good weekend or two.
Irvine, Barrichello, Massa and Kimi in his second stint, although they were highly motivated and had their own ambition to win races/beating their teammates, their role and ability in the team was clear. Support the lead driver (Schumacher, Raikkonen, Alonso and Vettel) and gather enough points for the team championship and help develop the car. Drivers like Leclerc, Hamilton and Verstappen were/are brought into their teams to, after some development, lead the team.

Somehow Ferrari decided to bring Leclerc to their big team this year, while, in my opinion, 2020 would have been a better fit. This would give Leclerc one year to become team captain and they, if he would perform like they expected, replace Vettel with someone like Bottas or Giovinazzi. Now they have to manage this situation for two seasons or pay break Vettel's contract for 2020.

I also think this is the reasoning behind the benching of Ocon at Mercedes. Their current formula with Hamilton and Bottas is working, like Kimi and Vettel worked. 2020 is a good year to spice things up a bit, because for 2021 all options are open (go with what you have, promote your own talent or make Verstappen a good offer)

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2019 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 12-14

Post by Just_a_fan » Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:14 pm

It's up to the team how they do it, but if they take the line they are doing now, they need to get Leclerc publicly towing the line. It's no good having him publicly saying "I think the team are wrong".

His best response is to keep his mouth shut, his head down and drive as fast as he can. If the team continually have to ask him to let Vettel by then he's made his point in a much better way than shouting on the radio. If Vettel is ahead anyway (started ahead etc.) then stay with him and show that you are as quick. Track him and don't let him get away. It's possible you pressure your team mate in to a mistake, for example, and then you benefit.

Do that, and everyone will know the reality of the situation. By shouting on the radio, he will just make people think he is a spoilt brat (as others have been accused over time).
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Restomaniac
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Re: 2019 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 12-14

Post by Restomaniac » Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:50 pm

Sulman wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:53 pm
I think drivers need firm, respectful management, or bad things will happen. I like how Haas do it. I like how Stewart did it with Cevert; i.e. "It's not your time, but it will be." I wasn't so keen on Schumacher/Barrichello but I think Schumacher/Massa was just about perfect.

An example of how not to do it was Alonso/Hamilton, and latterly Ricciardo/Verstappen.

It isn't Leclerc's time yet, and he's still very young indeed. I'd be looking at him to lead a charge possibly next year, but it all depends on how he performs now.

You can't just throw your lead driver under the bus because his young and shiny teammate has a good weekend or two.
Sorry but telling your lead driver that he will have to pass his team mate the old fashioned way isn’t throwing him under a bus.

Doing what they did to Leclerc certainly is. It’s the same argument as the other year when Mercedes were telling Hamilton to let Rosberg past and Hamilton quite rightly said ‘I’m not gunna slow down for him to pass’. Leclerc would have been well within his rights to have said ‘I’ll tell ya what, if he appears along side of me then fine, but I won’t be driving at anything other than 100% until he does.’

Sulman
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Re: 2019 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 12-14

Post by Sulman » Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:07 pm

Restomaniac wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:50 pm
Sulman wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:53 pm
I think drivers need firm, respectful management, or bad things will happen. I like how Haas do it. I like how Stewart did it with Cevert; i.e. "It's not your time, but it will be." I wasn't so keen on Schumacher/Barrichello but I think Schumacher/Massa was just about perfect.

An example of how not to do it was Alonso/Hamilton, and latterly Ricciardo/Verstappen.

It isn't Leclerc's time yet, and he's still very young indeed. I'd be looking at him to lead a charge possibly next year, but it all depends on how he performs now.

You can't just throw your lead driver under the bus because his young and shiny teammate has a good weekend or two.
Sorry but telling your lead driver that he will have to pass his team mate the old fashioned way isn’t throwing him under a bus.

Doing what they did to Leclerc certainly is. It’s the same argument as the other year when Mercedes were telling Hamilton to let Rosberg past and Hamilton quite rightly said ‘I’m not gunna slow down for him to pass’. Leclerc would have been well within his rights to have said ‘I’ll tell ya what, if he appears along side of me then fine, but I won’t be driving at anything other than 100% until he does.’
I was thinking of Hamilton & Rosberg too, and it touches on another issue that makes team orders a necessary evil: There's a few tracks where a minor difference in pace means a slightly faster car is not going to be able to pass. We saw it with Ocon & Perez on a few occasions too. The team's got to decide. 'Let them race' is an ideal solution but the reality is the guy with track position has a big advantage on aero-dependent tracks. At this point you have to ask someone to move over.

munudeges
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Re: 2019 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 12-14

Post by munudeges » Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:22 pm

I'm not sure what the point of pulling Le Clerc over was. There's no championship at stake yet.

Restomaniac
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Re: 2019 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 12-14

Post by Restomaniac » Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:32 pm

Sulman wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:07 pm
Restomaniac wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:50 pm
Sulman wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:53 pm
I think drivers need firm, respectful management, or bad things will happen. I like how Haas do it. I like how Stewart did it with Cevert; i.e. "It's not your time, but it will be." I wasn't so keen on Schumacher/Barrichello but I think Schumacher/Massa was just about perfect.

An example of how not to do it was Alonso/Hamilton, and latterly Ricciardo/Verstappen.

It isn't Leclerc's time yet, and he's still very young indeed. I'd be looking at him to lead a charge possibly next year, but it all depends on how he performs now.

You can't just throw your lead driver under the bus because his young and shiny teammate has a good weekend or two.
Sorry but telling your lead driver that he will have to pass his team mate the old fashioned way isn’t throwing him under a bus.

Doing what they did to Leclerc certainly is. It’s the same argument as the other year when Mercedes were telling Hamilton to let Rosberg past and Hamilton quite rightly said ‘I’m not gunna slow down for him to pass’. Leclerc would have been well within his rights to have said ‘I’ll tell ya what, if he appears along side of me then fine, but I won’t be driving at anything other than 100% until he does.’
I was thinking of Hamilton & Rosberg too, and it touches on another issue that makes team orders a necessary evil: There's a few tracks where a minor difference in pace means a slightly faster car is not going to be able to pass. We saw it with Ocon & Perez on a few occasions too. The team's got to decide. 'Let them race' is an ideal solution but the reality is the guy with track position has a big advantage on aero-dependent tracks. At this point you have to ask someone to move over.
I wasn’t talking about racing though. It was more a case of ‘if he gets alongside me then fine’ China isn’t the same as Monaco. This is where the ‘I’m faster’ argument falls apart.

If you are SO much faster then get alongside on your bloody own then!!!!!

foxmulder_ms
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Re: 2019 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 12-14

Post by foxmulder_ms » Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:56 pm

selvam_e2002 wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:06 pm
Sulman wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:53 pm
I think drivers need firm, respectful management, or bad things will happen. I like how Haas do it. I like how Stewart did it with Cevert; i.e. "It's not your time, but it will be." I wasn't so keen on Schumacher/Barrichello but I think Schumacher/Massa was just about perfect.

An example of how not to do it was Alonso/Hamilton, and latterly Ricciardo/Verstappen.

It isn't Leclerc's time yet, and he's still very young indeed. I'd be looking at him to lead a charge possibly next year, but it all depends on how he performs now.

You can't just throw your lead driver under the bus because his young and shiny teammate has a good weekend or two.
Indeed.

If you look at the first 3 races, it might've been Leclerc's time..

siskue2005
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Re: 2019 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 12-14

Post by siskue2005 » Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:58 pm

Restomaniac wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:32 pm
Sulman wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:07 pm
Restomaniac wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:50 pm
Sorry but telling your lead driver that he will have to pass his team mate the old fashioned way isn’t throwing him under a bus.

Doing what they did to Leclerc certainly is. It’s the same argument as the other year when Mercedes were telling Hamilton to let Rosberg past and Hamilton quite rightly said ‘I’m not gunna slow down for him to pass’. Leclerc would have been well within his rights to have said ‘I’ll tell ya what, if he appears along side of me then fine, but I won’t be driving at anything other than 100% until he does.’
I was thinking of Hamilton & Rosberg too, and it touches on another issue that makes team orders a necessary evil: There's a few tracks where a minor difference in pace means a slightly faster car is not going to be able to pass. We saw it with Ocon & Perez on a few occasions too. The team's got to decide. 'Let them race' is an ideal solution but the reality is the guy with track position has a big advantage on aero-dependent tracks. At this point you have to ask someone to move over.
I wasn’t talking about racing though. It was more a case of ‘if he gets alongside me then fine’ China isn’t the same as Monaco. This is where the ‘I’m faster’ argument falls apart.

If you are SO much faster then get alongside on your bloody own then!!!!!
Exactly

foxmulder_ms
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Re: 2019 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 12-14

Post by foxmulder_ms » Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:01 pm

Ringleheim wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:14 am
foxmulder_ms wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:54 pm
Great race by Ham and Kimi. Ham deserved it. winner of the 1000th race sounds good.

Kimi nicely passed same cars twice :) with a better strat he would finished in front of perez..

This is why I dont like Ferrari. They throw Lec under the bus for no reason. Maybe it is in Vettel's contract to have special treatment if he qualifies front.. whatever. Other teams dont do it this early in the season. Peah...
They didn't throw him under the bus. Vettel looked faster and it was obvious Charles was not making any progress on the car ahead, so why not shake things up and see what Vettel could do before the Mercedes disappeared into the distance?

It's funny as you take a very driver-centric approach to your F1 viewing. I take a team view. I love Ferrari and have no interest in specific drivers, per se. I want the team to do well, not specific drivers.
Numbers are telling the opposite. Leclerc was lapping 1.38.xx and when vettel was in front he was going 1.39.xx. when Lec was front they were almost keeping stationary compared to rivals. They lost time to both Mercs and Vestappen when Vet took the lead.

jurinius
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Re: 2019 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 12-14

Post by jurinius » Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:08 pm

It is the beginning of the season, Ferrari should build their own strategy not copy or compare with what Mercedes is doing. It is not like Vettel was already WDC with them. Why not take the risk and treat them with equals chance to win ?

The swap is not the main problem here, like I said in my previous post Ferrari could have try something risky a double stop or something else trying to keep both drivers in good racing position against Max. What was the point with Leclerc staying out much longer ?

Ferrari fans are just like, yeah people just want us to take more risks, Hamilton is playing mind game complimenting Leclerc, .... Maybe it's true ! why not build on something which can be positive in what happening. Leclerc is driving very well, just give him a chance, ok Vettel will probably loose point behind but this is not the fault of team he should do better.
“And suddenly I realized that I was no longer driving the car consciously. I was driving it by a kind of instinct, only I was in a different dimension.”
― Ayrton Senna

Phil
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Re: 2019 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 12-14

Post by Phil » Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:29 pm

Sulman wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:53 pm
You can't just throw your lead driver under the bus because his young and shiny teammate has a good weekend or two.
No one wants that, not even Leclerc. What both want, more so Leclerc, is a chance to get equal treatment and a fair shot of challenging his team-mate and fight for wins. On Saturday, this is easily possible and hard to influence, however during the race, it's easier for the team to influence both drivers by imposing team-orders or their strategy.

I also think there's a difference between;

- telling both drivers to hold position and not battle each other for position
- telling one driver not to hold the other up (swap positions)
- telling one driver to let the other pass even though he might be slower

I don't mind that they let Vettel by. At that point, he did clearly look faster, he was the faster of the two over the course of the entire weekend, so I don't fault Ferrari for wanting to swap positions. Long term though; Ferrari really have to consider carefully to what extent and how far they are willing to go to protect Vettels declared "number 1 status". If they influence and impose team orders too aggressively, they are risking getting bad PR, it will only damage Vettel confidence further (as a result of the media weighing in on things) and in the end, their 'talent of perhaps a generation' will build up an animosity towards the team and either work against them, lose faith and/or underperform.

One more thing to consider; When you are in virtually the same car, passing is perhaps the most difficult and the required delta you need to successfully attempt an overtake the largest. The risk is also rather big, as overtaking mostly requires two drivers to play ball. How aggressively is the one in front willing to defend his position? How aggressive should the one attempting the overtake be when engaging his team-mate? Obviously, being in a title race, the most important thing is to not crash with your team-mate and take each other out. I somewhat get the feeling that there must be some pre-agreement prior to the race that the drivers discuss to cover most eventualities; and I would not be surprised if at Ferrari (and somewhat Mercedes) that engaging your team-mate is not allowed, unless sanctioned by the team or if there is a large performance gap that would allow one to pass easily. I see confirmation in this, in how especially Leclerc questioned his team twice, once in Melbourne and once in Bahrain, when he came on the radio to say "guys, I can drive faster". Equally, I think Vettel also came on the radio when following Leclerc for multiple laps within DRS. It's as if they were asking their team to sanction an overtake attempt or to have a team-order imposed to allow one to be let through by the other.

If this is the case, where you qualify, your position during the race and how good your pace is during the race will be even more crucial in how the team might decide. In one thing, the team seems to be at least consistent though; They have publicly stated that in 50/50 situations, they would treat Vettel as their number 1 and this so far seems to be the case.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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Shrieker
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Re: 2019 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 12-14

Post by Shrieker » Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:05 pm

Juzh wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 10:02 pm
https://streamable.com/4sb9e

Perfect ! That player just stops exactly when you click on it, unlike youtube. As always, thank you so much ! :)
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Restomaniac
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Re: 2019 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 12-14

Post by Restomaniac » Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:44 pm

Phil wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:29 pm
Sulman wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:53 pm
You can't just throw your lead driver under the bus because his young and shiny teammate has a good weekend or two.
No one wants that, not even Leclerc. What both want, more so Leclerc, is a chance to get equal treatment and a fair shot of challenging his team-mate and fight for wins. On Saturday, this is easily possible and hard to influence, however during the race, it's easier for the team to influence both drivers by imposing team-orders or their strategy.

I also think there's a difference between;

- telling both drivers to hold position and not battle each other for position
- telling one driver not to hold the other up (swap positions)
- telling one driver to let the other pass even though he might be slower

I don't mind that they let Vettel by. At that point, he did clearly look faster, he was the faster of the two over the course of the entire weekend, so I don't fault Ferrari for wanting to swap positions. Long term though; Ferrari really have to consider carefully to what extent and how far they are willing to go to protect Vettels declared "number 1 status". If they influence and impose team orders too aggressively, they are risking getting bad PR, it will only damage Vettel confidence further (as a result of the media weighing in on things) and in the end, their 'talent of perhaps a generation' will build up an animosity towards the team and either work against them, lose faith and/or underperform.

One more thing to consider; When you are in virtually the same car, passing is perhaps the most difficult and the required delta you need to successfully attempt an overtake the largest. The risk is also rather big, as overtaking mostly requires two drivers to play ball. How aggressively is the one in front willing to defend his position? How aggressive should the one attempting the overtake be when engaging his team-mate? Obviously, being in a title race, the most important thing is to not crash with your team-mate and take each other out. I somewhat get the feeling that there must be some pre-agreement prior to the race that the drivers discuss to cover most eventualities; and I would not be surprised if at Ferrari (and somewhat Mercedes) that engaging your team-mate is not allowed, unless sanctioned by the team or if there is a large performance gap that would allow one to pass easily. I see confirmation in this, in how especially Leclerc questioned his team twice, once in Melbourne and once in Bahrain, when he came on the radio to say "guys, I can drive faster". Equally, I think Vettel also came on the radio when following Leclerc for multiple laps within DRS. It's as if they were asking their team to sanction an overtake attempt or to have a team-order imposed to allow one to be let through by the other.

If this is the case, where you qualify, your position during the race and how good your pace is during the race will be even more crucial in how the team might decide. In one thing, the team seems to be at least consistent though; They have publicly stated that in 50/50 situations, they would treat Vettel as their number 1 and this so far seems to be the case.
But it wouldn’t be an overtake per se.
It would be just getting in a position where the other driver doesn’t need to slow down. Like I said ‘well let him get alongside me and it’s fine. I mean if he is so much faster then what’s the issue?’.

GrandAxe
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Re: 2019 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 12-14

Post by GrandAxe » Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:49 pm

Vasconia wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:59 am
GrandAxe wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:40 am
Schuttelberg wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:47 am


Personally, I don't find it funny. He won his title, retired and I have no problem unlike some for him to be around and give us his views. BUT, he seems to babble on a lot about his contemporaries and their competence. He seems to forget that he won a championship for which he went through a lot of hardships and easily disrespects people who have perhaps been through the same or more. In Bahrain, he was at Seb's throat and this week he chose Lewis. I find it incredibly distasteful and I am not a resentful or hateful person but he definitely tries to get that started in me.
You've just listed many of the reasons many don't like to see Nico commenting around the paddock. He won a championship and failed to defend it, which is the minimum expected of a champion to keep any sport going or interesting.

Imagine if Schumacher have retired after his first WDC, or Usain Bolt after his first medal, or Muhammed Ali after his first knock out etc.

There is something wrong about someone who ran off, only to come back and talk so much about the abilities of others who have stuck in the heat for the benefit of the sport.
It is disrespectful, especially to the other WDC's on the grid (Lewis - 5 time, Seb - 4 time, Kimi 1 time and last year, Alonso - 2 time).

Sky most likely brought him back for the controversy, in this brand new world of click marketing and zero values.
Your hate for Nico make you say some very weird things. As any other driver he has the right to comment the races. In which dimension is this to be disrespectful? You can criticize that he lef the sport without defending the title but he had the right to do and this has nothing to do with his role as a commentator.
"Hate"? Use of such strong words hint at a personal attack, which is the ultimate giveaway of a person who is empty off any valid counter-argument.

Sports revolves around champions proving their pedigree and awing the spectators - at the heart of sport is the very fundamental ethos of competition. Any sport will soon wither and die without worthy champions.
In this way, any one who runs off after a championship has deeply wronged that sport; further, it only gives the distinct impression that deep in their minds they do not feel they earned it, but were simply lucky.

Would there be any great drivers today if they all docked the challenge? Fangio, Lauda, Schumacher, Alonso, Vettel, Lewis etc?

A person who doesn't feel up to the task has no right whatsoever to comment on those who who can, especially drivers who are single or multiple WDC's (Kimi, Alonso, Vettel and Lewis). It doesn't speak of character. This is especially worse when most of the time what is said turns out to be either inadequate or remarkably flippant, a breach of trust or even insulting e.g. Ferrari staff telling him they got their aero wrong.
Last edited by GrandAxe on Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.