2019 Monaco Grand Prix - Monte Carlo, May 23-26

[NathanOlder]

Can’t wait for the Mercedes 1-2 this weekend. I wonder which one will win?! What a thrill

Yup, will be nice for them to win for Niki. Glad your excited for it too.

Niki Lauda, the legendary Mercedes non-executive chairman.

(you're* btw, it's not the possessive here)

its a forum, ppl use slang all the time, spellin isnt essential, as long as ppl get the point. people that comment on those kind of fings really need to... and ill stop there. move on boyo

[Just_a_fan]

Well, it could be considered irrelevant. It’s the rules that determine that. With pre 2017 wings and tire widths these speeds would simply be impossible.

This is true but just on power outputs vs engine size compared to previous engines these are the work of genius. That isn’t irrelevance.

Remember 80s? 1.5L 1500hp?

vs todays 1.6L 800hp

1400bhp according to calculations, not a dyno, as I understand it. And that engine was used for an out lap, a single fast lap and an in lap. And they often grenaded themselves doing that. And used how much fuel per lap?

Modern engines do 5 events - that's hundreds of laps and use a fraction of the fuel. Modern PUs are great engineering. The old lumps were part engineering and part luck!

[Jolle]

This is true but just on power outputs vs engine size compared to previous engines these are the work of genius. That isn’t irrelevance.

Remember 80s? 1.5L 1500hp?

vs todays 1.6L 800hp

1400bhp according to calculations, not a dyno, as I understand it. And that engine was used for an out lap, a single fast lap and an in lap. And they often grenaded themselves doing that. And used how much fuel per lap?

Modern engines do 5 events - that's hundreds of laps and use a fraction of the fuel. Modern PUs are great engineering. The old lumps were part engineering and part luck!

In race trim, the top 1.5l without the later boost restrictions) had around 600-650 hp and used 220l of fuel during a race, logging a 540kg car across track. And of course a complete rebuild after each race. Oh, and finishing was more luck then a given.

[Just_a_fan]

Jolle - exactly.

[zeph]

I looked up Monaco pole times throughout the decades:

1929: William Grover-Williams (Bugatti) 2:15.0
1959: Stirling Moss (Cooper-Climax) 1:39.6
1969: Jackie Stewart (Matra-Ford) 1:24.6
1979: Jody Scheckter (Ferrari) 1:26.45
1989: Ayrton Senna (McLaren-Honda) 1:22:308
1999: Mika Häkkinen (McLaren-Mercedes) 1:20.547
2009: Jenson Button (BrawnGP-Mercedes) 1:14.902

The 1979 seems a little odd, as it is nearly two seconds slower than Stewart's lap ten years earlier? Other than that, it gives a good idea of the progress throughout the years, especially as Monaco is one of the least aero-sensitive F1 tracks. There were no races in 1939 and 1949.

Hamilton's fastest lap in P2 was 1:11.118

Incredible how much faster these cars are, at roughly half the fuel consumption.

The swimming pool was added in 1972 (and some other modifications to the track)

Great, thanks. I figured it had to be something like that.

[sosic2121]

In the end, it's all about rules. If rules allowed, every team would use new engine every race. It's same with fuel.

And one more question, why are new cars so much heavier than they used to be?

So if consider power density, these PUs are probably the worst ones since... I don't know when.

[Restomaniac]

Remember 80s? 1.5L 1500hp?

vs todays 1.6L 800hp

1400bhp according to calculations, not a dyno, as I understand it. And that engine was used for an out lap, a single fast lap and an in lap. And they often grenaded themselves doing that. And used how much fuel per lap?

Modern engines do 5 events - that's hundreds of laps and use a fraction of the fuel. Modern PUs are great engineering. The old lumps were part engineering and part luck!

In race trim, the top 1.5l without the later boost restrictions) had around 600-650 hp and used 220l of fuel during a race, logging a 540kg car across track. And of course a complete rebuild after each race. Oh, and finishing was more luck then a given.

Yep.

[Just_a_fan]

In the end, it's all about rules. If rules allowed, every team would use new engine every race. It's same with fuel.

And one more question, why are new cars so much heavier than they used to be?

So if consider power density, these PUs are probably the worst ones since... I don't know when.

As you say - rules. The rules state various minimum weights. Partly this down to safety - added impact protection etc adds weight. Partly it's to reduce spending on developing ever lighter engine components etc. Then there is the extra kit in the cars - battery, MGU x 2, control systems, cooling systems for these extra bits, etc.

As for power density, the current engines put out 800+bhp in the race. The old turbos didn't get anywhere near that in the race. They were about 650bhp and weighed 540kg empty - so about 120kg less than the current cars. 800/740 = 1.08 bhp/kg, 650/540 = 1.2bhp/kg, both without fuel and driver. Of course, part of that extra weight is the ERS which gives the cars approaching an effective 1000bhp. Say 950bhp. 950/740 = 1.28bhp/kg. So actually the current cars have better power density than the old turbo cars did in race trim. And they do it for 5 whole events per engine rather than 5 engines per event.

[GPR-A]

There are many engine threads available here. Take this wonderful discussion about engines there and leave the race thread for race discussions.

[Restomaniac]

There are many engine threads available here. Take this wonderful discussion about engines there and leave the race thread for race discussions.

That’s fair enough

[siskue2005]

You think so? I don't see the other cars doing the same thing...I guess I need to go and check more onboards.

Edit: The movement does not appear linear and I feel it does not match the loading of the turn. I am not an expert at all, so my opinion is probably wrong anyway...

Edit:
They have a different suspension geometry
Explained here
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=27911&start=1155

Slow turns were the weakest aspect in the Mercedes W9 and specially the W8, their long wheelbase (longest of the grid) was a problem in slow tracks like Monaco, as their pressure center moves backwards a lot as speed decreases, generating understeer due to the loss of front downforce
Before the start of the 2018 season, FIA introduced a new technical regulation (after Ferrari's suggestion) that limited the hight variation of the floor (front) with the variation of the direction angle. Therefore since 2018, a suspension system called "Pushrod on Upright" is legal
Ferrari tested this system later on during the 2018 season, but isn't using it this year. However, Mercedes noticed that this system was perfect to solve their slow turn problems in 2019
In the video, you can see how the W10 moves down significantly when the turning angle is at its maximum in the Monaco hairpin

[Ringleheim]

Anyone else look at Vettel's new helmet design with his Niki Lauda tribute and wonder how in the world it could have been designed and prepared in time for FP1 on Thursday?

I assume he had been working on this for quite some time in the event that Niki passed away, as he has been in poor health for quite a while.

[Ringleheim]

There are many engine threads available here. Take this wonderful discussion about engines there and leave the race thread for race discussions.

THANK YOU!

[Jolle]

Anyone else look at Vettel's new helmet design with his Niki Lauda tribute and wonder how in the world it could have been designed and prepared in time for FP1 on Thursday?

I assume he had been working on this for quite some time in the event that Niki passed away, as he has been in poor health for quite a while.

Possible... but with a bit of elbow grease, it can be done within a day. I think in FP2 he was going round in his normal helmet, so I guess he only got one "niki special" (just checked, he also had the niki special on his head for FP2)

[Wouter]

Slow turns were the weakest aspect in the Mercedes W9 and specially the W8, their long wheelbase (longest of the grid) was a problem in slow tracks like Monaco, as their pressure center moves backwards a lot as speed decreases, generating understeer due to the loss of front downforce
Before the start of the 2018 season, FIA introduced a new technical regulation (after Ferrari's suggestion) that limited the hight variation of the floor (front) with the variation of the direction angle. Therefore since 2018, a suspension system called "Pushrod on Upright" is legal
Ferrari tested this system later on during the 2018 season, but isn't using it this year. However, Mercedes noticed that this system was perfect to solve their slow turn problems in 2019
In the video, you can see how the W10 moves down significantly when the turning angle is at its maximum in the Monaco hairpin

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