Scuderia Ferrari SF90

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter does not belong here.
siskue2005
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by siskue2005 » Sun Jun 09, 2019 7:16 am

MichaelFerrari wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 6:57 am
Yes, but obviously his point simply implies that Vet didn't really lose anything in the corners... Hence the use of "match"

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What?
he did lose time in the corners, he gained more time in the next straights (as this track allows cars with low downforce to gain more time than what they lost in the corners).
So this implies that this is a track specific thing... Still he lost time in the corners
Ashwinv16 wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 3:16 am
Vettel Matched Hamilton on that pole lap, showing that the Ferrari can go quick in the medium and Speed Corners
this is what was posted,for a fact he didnot match lewis in the medium and speed corners!!

LM10
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by LM10 » Sun Jun 09, 2019 8:16 am

siskue2005 wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 7:16 am
MichaelFerrari wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 6:57 am
Yes, but obviously his point simply implies that Vet didn't really lose anything in the corners... Hence the use of "match"

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk
What?
he did lose time in the corners, he gained more time in the next straights (as this track allows cars with low downforce to gain more time than what they lost in the corners).
So this implies that this is a track specific thing... Still he lost time in the corners
Ashwinv16 wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 3:16 am
Vettel Matched Hamilton on that pole lap, showing that the Ferrari can go quick in the medium and Speed Corners
this is what was posted,for a fact he didnot match lewis in the medium and speed corners!!
AMuS reported that Vettel lost 3.5 tenths in the slow corners to Hamilton, but he was equally fast in the medium speed ones.

What’s more, the speed advantage on every single straight is not purely explained by lower downforce. Ferrari simply accelerated better also on lower speeds.

siskue2005
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by siskue2005 » Sun Jun 09, 2019 8:47 am

LM10 wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 8:16 am
siskue2005 wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 7:16 am
MichaelFerrari wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 6:57 am
Yes, but obviously his point simply implies that Vet didn't really lose anything in the corners... Hence the use of "match"

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk
What?
he did lose time in the corners, he gained more time in the next straights (as this track allows cars with low downforce to gain more time than what they lost in the corners).
So this implies that this is a track specific thing... Still he lost time in the corners
Ashwinv16 wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 3:16 am
Vettel Matched Hamilton on that pole lap, showing that the Ferrari can go quick in the medium and Speed Corners
this is what was posted,for a fact he didnot match lewis in the medium and speed corners!!
AMuS reported that Vettel lost 3.5 tenths in the slow corners to Hamilton, but he was equally fast in the medium speed ones.

What’s more, the speed advantage on every single straight is not purely explained by lower downforce. Ferrari simply accelerated better also on lower speeds.
That would point towards a significant engine advantage, which they usually have since 2017....the top end speed with this draggy cars indicate the aero advantage

siskue2005
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by siskue2005 » Sun Jun 09, 2019 8:48 am

LM10 wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 8:16 am
AMuS reported that Vettel lost 3.5 tenths in the slow corners to Hamilton, but he was equally fast in the medium speed ones.

What’s more, the speed advantage on every single straight is not purely explained by lower downforce. Ferrari simply accelerated better also on lower speeds.
but the graphics indicate otherwise

bosyber
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by bosyber » Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:03 am

The comparison video from Q3 indicates Vettel loses in the early (breaking phase?) of the slower corners, doesn't it?

siskue2005
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by siskue2005 » Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:18 am

bosyber wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:03 am
The comparison video from Q3 indicates Vettel loses in the early (breaking phase?) of the slower corners, doesn't it?
From the graphics, he loses as soon as we brake for the corner and also continues to lose time (until the corner exit when the traction out of the corner is no longer dependent on mechanical suspension/downforce and pure engine power kicks in.)
You can verify that in the video below (btw great comparison)

Just_a_fan
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by Just_a_fan » Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:35 am

So the myth of Mercedes having the best engine is now put to bed, yes?
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

siskue2005
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by siskue2005 » Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:43 am

Just_a_fan wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:35 am
So the myth of Mercedes having the best engine is now put to bed, yes?
Yes i think
with these draggy big cars, the top end speed mostly depends on the downforce drag levels (ferrari also has less draggy car which gives them top speed advantage), but after the corner exit when only engine power dictates the pace ferrari seems to excel due to pure engine power.

TheFluffy
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by TheFluffy » Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:58 am

siskue2005 wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:43 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:35 am
So the myth of Mercedes having the best engine is now put to bed, yes?
Yes i think
with these draggy big cars, the top end speed mostly depends on the downforce drag levels (ferrari also has less draggy car which gives them top speed advantage), but after the corner exit when only engine power dictates the pace ferrari seems to excel due to pure engine power.
No I don't think the discussion can be put to bed. There are rumours in the paddock that Mercedes turned down all the spec-2 engines after Stroll's engine failure in FP3.

So perhaps for this race, Ferrari had a stronger engine, but it may be partly because Mercedes turning it down. Although I believe that Ferrari have a better energy recovery system than Mercedes, enabling them to run the electric power for longer duration on the straights, Mercedes have a more efficient ICE. Thus this allows them to carry less fuel on board= better race pace. So they both have great engines, just in different ways.

siskue2005
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by siskue2005 » Sun Jun 09, 2019 11:02 am

TheFluffy wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:58 am
siskue2005 wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:43 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:35 am
So the myth of Mercedes having the best engine is now put to bed, yes?
Yes i think
with these draggy big cars, the top end speed mostly depends on the downforce drag levels (ferrari also has less draggy car which gives them top speed advantage), but after the corner exit when only engine power dictates the pace ferrari seems to excel due to pure engine power.
No I don't think the discussion can be put to bed. There are rumours in the paddock that Mercedes turned down all the spec-2 engines after Stroll's engine failure in FP3.

So perhaps for this race, Ferrari had a stronger engine, but it may be partly because Mercedes turning it down. Although I believe that Ferrari have a better energy recovery system than Mercedes, enabling them to run the electric power for longer duration on the straights, Mercedes have a more efficient ICE. Thus this allows them to carry less fuel on board= better race pace. So they both have great engines, just in different ways.
No they didnot turn it down
LM10 wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 8:08 am
atanatizante wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2019 10:56 pm
1. AMuS said Merc and Williams were running with lower engine modes in qualy until they find the reason behind Racing Point engine failure, which btw. received a fresh spec.1 PU ... in the speed traps Merc and Williams were quite down and Racing Point traditionally went for a low downforce setup hence their better top speeds ...
AMuS didn’t report that Mercedes was running with lower engine modes. In fact, they reported the opposite and quoted Toto telling that they trust their engine bench tests and didn’t turn down.
Although I believe that Ferrari have a better energy recovery system than Mercedes, enabling them to run the electric power for longer duration on the straights, Mercedes have a more efficient ICE. Thus this allows them to carry less fuel on board= better race pace. So they both have great engines, just in different ways.
the engine from 2014 is called a power unit, the ICE or ERS which ever is good does mean that the whole power unit is better.....and from where did you get that merc has more efficient (fuel wise) than ferrari??

TheFluffy
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by TheFluffy » Sun Jun 09, 2019 11:15 am

siskue2005 wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 11:02 am
TheFluffy wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:58 am
siskue2005 wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:43 am

Yes i think
with these draggy big cars, the top end speed mostly depends on the downforce drag levels (ferrari also has less draggy car which gives them top speed advantage), but after the corner exit when only engine power dictates the pace ferrari seems to excel due to pure engine power.
No I don't think the discussion can be put to bed. There are rumours in the paddock that Mercedes turned down all the spec-2 engines after Stroll's engine failure in FP3.

So perhaps for this race, Ferrari had a stronger engine, but it may be partly because Mercedes turning it down. Although I believe that Ferrari have a better energy recovery system than Mercedes, enabling them to run the electric power for longer duration on the straights, Mercedes have a more efficient ICE. Thus this allows them to carry less fuel on board= better race pace. So they both have great engines, just in different ways.
No they didnot turn it down
LM10 wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 8:08 am
atanatizante wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2019 10:56 pm
1. AMuS said Merc and Williams were running with lower engine modes in qualy until they find the reason behind Racing Point engine failure, which btw. received a fresh spec.1 PU ... in the speed traps Merc and Williams were quite down and Racing Point traditionally went for a low downforce setup hence their better top speeds ...
AMuS didn’t report that Mercedes was running with lower engine modes. In fact, they reported the opposite and quoted Toto telling that they trust their engine bench tests and didn’t turn down.
Although I believe that Ferrari have a better energy recovery system than Mercedes, enabling them to run the electric power for longer duration on the straights, Mercedes have a more efficient ICE. Thus this allows them to carry less fuel on board= better race pace. So they both have great engines, just in different ways.
the engine from 2014 is called a power unit, the ICE or ERS which ever is good does mean that the whole power unit is better.....and from where did you get that merc has more efficient (fuel wise) than ferrari??
Admittedly, the source of Mercedes having a more fuel efficient engine is from last year (I think it was amus) but it did say (at least for last year) they had a more efficient ICE. Of course, lots can change but extrapolating from last year's knowledge maybe it remains status quo.

Also, this is a very superficial observation, but the crazy packaging that Mercedes are able to achieve with their car may be down to having an efficient engine. Of course, it is probably predominantly because of their better cooling system. But efficiency MAY play a part.

siskue2005
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by siskue2005 » Sun Jun 09, 2019 11:26 am

TheFluffy wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 11:15 am


Admittedly, the source of Mercedes having a more fuel efficient engine is from last year (I think it was amus) but it did say (at least for last year) they had a more efficient ICE. Of course, lots can change but extrapolating from last year's knowledge maybe it remains status quo.

Also, this is a very superficial observation, but the crazy packaging that Mercedes are able to achieve with their car may be down to having an efficient engine. Of course, it is probably predominantly because of their better cooling system. But efficiency MAY play a part.
So based on just the fuel efficiency which was reported in 2018 you are saying Mercedes still the best engine?
1. even when ferrari can run higher engine modes through out the weekend,
2. even when ferrari can go faster in mid straights
Image
3. even when ferrari can have letter boxes as their sidepod entry for last 2 years
4. even when ferrari can pull out 0.3 sec just in one straight
Image
5. even when other ferrari powered teams are also power full

Still Mercedes engine is better than ferrari's!?
Right!!

marvin78
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by marvin78 » Sun Jun 09, 2019 11:54 am

The PU is better, because it seems to be more reliable, more fuel efficient and more driveable. Top Speed is only one tiny factor.

Ashwinv16
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by Ashwinv16 » Sun Jun 09, 2019 12:14 pm

siskue2005 wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 6:18 am
Ashwinv16 wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 3:16 am
https://drive.google.com/file/d/15IjYkP ... p=drivesdk

Just a thing to note, Vettel Matched Hamilton on that pole lap, showing that the Ferrari can go quick in the medium and Speed Corners, thus no clearly indicating that the front wing is the problem. So Hope the update in french gp with the front wing will bring them close to Mercedes. I mean it worked for Mclaren with their philosophy change i don't see why Ferrari can't do it too.
Sorry, but that is not where he gained the time
see the picture below the red color is where he gained time and it is 99% on the straights
https://serving.photos.photobox.com/549 ... 35c588.jpg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RBuENb ... r_embedded
Lot to read but trust me you will be suprised

Not exactly, notice how in the Turn 10 hairpin, Vettel gained more time, even though Mercedes are meant to be faster in the slow corners like Monaco. It shows the differing energy deployment strategy, (Also Ferrari starting to understand their car.) By turn 10 Hamilton used up most of his energy, and around that corner Vettel could use the power from the deployment and traction. You can cleary see Hamilton in 0.44 in that video bring down the Engine Braking setting. This provides more power for the driver to brake thus more energy recovered. It's always been the case with Hamilton, he uses most of the deployment in and out of corners and relies on engine power in the straights.

(There is also a weird theory that since 2016 Mercedes Hotlap mode enables the engine braking system(Which is part of the Mgu-h and Mgu-k system) to "cut power" and use the engine to slow down when off throttle like all engine braking system, but when the driver is back on it, there is a multiple step relay signal before it disables, so providing a mini traction control thus they can step the accelerator about 0.1 second earlier. They can't use it in the race cause the Differential will explode from the constant strain from the step signal from the engine braking.

Again just a theory, but this can also explain why Hamilton turns down the engine braking system. Because he clearly has the advantage in the first seven corners (We ignore 8 and 9 because Vettel gets on the yellow Kerbs which lost him time as he couldn't get on the throttle early, and so subsequently in the final two corners Vettel decides to stay away from them; there was at least 0.200 that he could have gained if he took Hamilton's line in the last two corners and did turn 9 properly). I mean simple maths says if he can press the accelerator 0.1 second earlier(That number is based on the 2013 Red Bull traction control rumor), then that's around 0.7 (not exactly true but you get the point) that's how much more deployment he is using compared to competition, thus running out by the time they come to turn 10 thus turning EB down to recover more energy, but by turning it down the traction control is lost making him much slower in the slower turn 10 than Ferrari. Again just a theory, no one freak out. (Take a listen to the Mercedes engine sound in the last few corners in Spain and compare it to the second last hairpin in China, i heard a difference but maybe not again just a theory, Rumours have it that Honda was the first to introduce the system thus the strange engine noise they have when they accelerate off corner. And Mercedes found out thanks to staff coming from McLaren in 2016 they figured out a smoother way to implement it, because of their split turbo design and with McLaren switching to Renault, Renault slowly begin understanding that, which is why they struggled with reliability throughout 2018 cause they found it harder to implement the system, and Ferrari has no clue cause they more secluded. And again just a theory don't come at me )
Last edited by Ashwinv16 on Sun Jun 09, 2019 12:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Bill
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by Bill » Sun Jun 09, 2019 12:18 pm

According to Toto Mercedes built a car with a lot of downforce but with a drag penalty to make tyres to work and get the most out of them Ferrari had done the opposite this explains the difference in top speed between to teams