2019 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal June 7-9

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siskue2005
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

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dans79 wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:22 am
LM10 wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:18 am
Vettel was not only robbed a win, but this penalty also put him into third place. If FIA tries to make racing as boring as possible, they're achieving it perfectly.
I'm sure you would have been dead silent if the positions had been reversed!
Exactly 👍

zeph
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

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Just because motor racing celebs agree, doesn’t make it so. I’m on record in this thread as saying the penalty was a terrible thing, and it really was from a racing perspective. But it was the correct call from the stewards. There’s a rule, there was a violation of the rule, so there was a penalty.

Also, Hamilton’s relentless pursuit is what forced Vettel into making a mistake and Lewis was ready to capitalize on that, but Seb’s unsafe re-entry stopped him from doing so. I really didn’t want Hamilton to win another race, but it would not be fair to him if Vettel’s mistake went unpunished.

So in terms of racing spirit, I would say no penalty for Vettel, but in terms of over-all fairness, I think the 5s time penalty was reasonable. It gave Vettel ample opportunity to win by pulling a <5s gap.

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Phil
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

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DarkSurferZA wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:21 am
I think it is unfair to say SV could have avoided the oversteer by staying off the throttle. It's not something they practice, and it's not part of racing (to instinctively let your opponent passed).
It's irrelevant if Seb could have avoided it or not. All it boils down to is that he made a mistake that, given the gap Hamilton had to him, meant it should have resulted in a loss of position. He completely left the track, yet when he rejoined, due to the trajectory he had, completely blocked Hamilton.

If you look at the onboards, it's very clear that Hamilton had the run, he didn't make a mistake, yet had to take avoiding measures to avoid the car coming back on to the track. This is every bit the definition of "joining the track in an unsafe manner". It's not relevant if Seb could have joined differently - his mistake and forced trajectory resulted in the other driver having to take avoiding action.

I'll post this one again:



I'm against blocking moves. Verstappen has a history of doing stuff like this and it shouldn't be allowed. I get the fact that there was no intent on Vettels part, but it doesn't change the fact that he was forced into a mistake that should have lost him that position. Mutual feelings about wanting to see Sebastian win this for Ferrari have no place in this. :|
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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djos
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

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Carl Mccoy wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:43 am
Bottas 2.0 is just illusion.
Even Ricciardo was surprised he could keep Bottas behind him for so long. He's really far too timid to be in a top car!
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

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ferenc_k wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:59 am
I want racing. There is no racing anymore. There is DRS. The DRS shows all too well how bad is the turbo era.
We had racing in Canada! We had lap after lap of Hamilton hounding Vettel, Vettel just staying ahead. DRS didn't make a pass for Hamilton. Lap after lap of will he / won't he until, finally, Vettel made a mistake. At a normal circuit, that mistake would have allowed Hamilton through.

I don't know what else you want if you don't think that was racing.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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GPR-A
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

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djos wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:44 am
Carl Mccoy wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:43 am
Bottas 2.0 is just illusion.
Even Ricciardo was surprised he could keep Bottas behind him for so long. He's really far too timid to be in a top car!
The upcoming races are all going to continue to bring Ferrari into play as those circuits really suit the strength of the Ferrari. That means, Bottas' struggle would continue.

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

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turbof1 wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:30 am
dans79 wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:23 am
fritticaldi wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:21 am
Mario Andretti disagrees with the decision. Check his twitter. Jenson Button disagrees also.
Both of them need to keep themselves in the spotlight so they're not forgotten!

Both of them are put into a position where they can give their opinion. They are entitled to do so. I don't care about their personal motivations. You either agree with them, or you don't. For the rest it's whether they bring a decent argument to the table or not.
After the race show on sky sports, Ted's notebook, Ted started with reading of the rules stating when rejoining the track whether you are in control of your car or not, you must leave a cars width when someone is a portion alongside your car. This according to Ted is in the rulebook.

This rule was 100% broken by Vettel in this incident , and I would love to hear Button, Brundle, Andretti ect answer this question directly and explain why Vettel shouldn't have been penalized.

That goes for everyone here who also disagrees with the penalty.
GoLandoGo
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Restomaniac
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

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zeph wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:27 am
Just because motor racing celebs agree, doesn’t make it so. I’m on record in this thread as saying the penalty was a terrible thing, and it really was from a racing perspective. But it was the correct call from the stewards. There’s a rule, there was a violation of the rule, so there was a penalty.
That was Jenson Button’s point after it all cooled down.

Don’t blame the stewards
Blame the rule. It’s black and white. You need to leave a cars width and Vettel didn’t.

Restomaniac
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

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djos wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:44 am
Carl Mccoy wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:43 am
Bottas 2.0 is just illusion.
Even Ricciardo was surprised he could keep Bottas behind him for so long. He's really far too timid to be in a top car!
Yeah I made that point during the race. Put Hamilton in that position and he eats Ricciardo in no time. In fact put Vettel, LeClerc, Ricciardo, Verstappen, etc in that position and they eat Ricciardo too.

LM10
LM10
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

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dans79 wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:22 am
I'm sure you would have been dead silent if the positions had been reversed!
The thing is, I doubt we’re gonna see a situation with positions reversed as Hamilton seems to be immune against this sort of penalties!
Monaco 2016, Germany 2018 off the top of my head, to give examples. In Monaco he obviously cut off Ricciardo after following a mistake and in Germany he didn’t cut anyone, but the fact there was no one coming along doesn’t make the completely deliberate cutting through grass on wet conditions to re-entry the track a safe one. It was not even investigated.

Bunch of clowns calling themselves stewards!
Last edited by LM10 on Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

Restomaniac
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

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NathanOlder wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:00 am
turbof1 wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:30 am
dans79 wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:23 am


Both of them need to keep themselves in the spotlight so they're not forgotten!

Both of them are put into a position where they can give their opinion. They are entitled to do so. I don't care about their personal motivations. You either agree with them, or you don't. For the rest it's whether they bring a decent argument to the table or not.
After the race show on sky sports, Ted's notebook, Ted started with reading of the rules stating when rejoining the track whether you are in control of your car or not, you must leave a cars width when someone is a portion alongside your car. This according to Ted is in the rulebook.

This rule was 100% broken by Vettel in this incident , and I would love to hear Button, Brundle, Andretti ect answer this question directly and explain why Vettel shouldn't have been penalized.

That goes for everyone here who also disagrees with the penalty.
To give Button credit he did say the rule was at fault.

ferenc_k
ferenc_k
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:51 am
ferenc_k wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:59 am
I want racing. There is no racing anymore. There is DRS. The DRS shows all too well how bad is the turbo era.
We had racing in Canada! We had lap after lap of Hamilton hounding Vettel, Vettel just staying ahead. DRS didn't make a pass for Hamilton. Lap after lap of will he / won't he until, finally, Vettel made a mistake. At a normal circuit, that mistake would have allowed Hamilton through.

I don't know what else you want if you don't think that was racing.
Come on, there was not one real passing maneuver... not even one. Ham was not even trying to pass as he was not close enough. It is not racing for me and as I saw in the last few years not for others too. This is the reason why FIA is trying to spice up the races artificially, with drs and the like.

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turbof1
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

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NathanOlder wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:00 am
turbof1 wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:30 am
dans79 wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:23 am


Both of them need to keep themselves in the spotlight so they're not forgotten!

Both of them are put into a position where they can give their opinion. They are entitled to do so. I don't care about their personal motivations. You either agree with them, or you don't. For the rest it's whether they bring a decent argument to the table or not.
After the race show on sky sports, Ted's notebook, Ted started with reading of the rules stating when rejoining the track whether you are in control of your car or not, you must leave a cars width when someone is a portion alongside your car. This according to Ted is in the rulebook.

This rule was 100% broken by Vettel in this incident , and I would love to hear Button, Brundle, Andretti ect answer this question directly and explain why Vettel shouldn't have been penalized.

That goes for everyone here who also disagrees with the penalty.
Right, so it's about the argument they bring forward which is good. Trying to complain about someone's motivations to bring out a silly argument to put him or herself into the picture and ironically being part of that through the complaining, that's not going to help (I am not talking about you).

Not sure why you felt to quote me on that though. The intent certainly wasn't for me to take a side. I am not expressing an opinion in favour or not in favour. My only intent was to keep people reasonable and listen to the different arguments as long as those arguments remain reasonable.
#AeroFrodo

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GPR-A
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

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Restomaniac wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:02 am
zeph wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:27 am
Just because motor racing celebs agree, doesn’t make it so. I’m on record in this thread as saying the penalty was a terrible thing, and it really was from a racing perspective. But it was the correct call from the stewards. There’s a rule, there was a violation of the rule, so there was a penalty.
That was Jenson Button’s point after it all cooled down.

Don’t blame the stewards
Blame the rule. It’s black and white. You need to leave a cars width and Vettel didn’t.
There should be a simple objective questionnaire in a laptop/hand held device/whatever, which the stewards should fill with a Yes/No for every incident. The software should simply spit out a decision based on the rules algorithm built into it along with the answers fed from stewards. Stewards should simply proclaim the outcome of the software. Leaving it to human discretion would always end up in this mess.

Example:
1. Did the car went off the track? Yes/No.
2. Was there a car within a second behind? Yes/No.
3. Did the car that went off, rejoined the track with forcing the following car to go off track/back off/take evading action? Yes/No.

Something like that and the decision is easy. Using defective human intellect to judge racing incidents, is prone to emotional mess up in decision making.

ferenc_k
ferenc_k
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

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LM10 wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:26 am
Thank you very much for this nice summary. Nothing more to say, really.
I did not see any ex-racer who supported the stewards decision. It tells a lot about the decision itself.