2019 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal June 7-9

For ease of use, there is one thread per grand prix where you can discuss everything during that specific GP weekend. You can find these threads here.
User avatar
Phil
425
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:22 pm

Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post

DarkSurferZA wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 9:48 pm
Well, I think there is something wrong with the stewards office when all the commentators unanimously disagree with a decision.
Would it change the incident in any way, if Mercedes had not won the last 6 races and dominated this season this far? If they had been the underdog? In a way it's funny - many hoped (me included) that Vettel and Ferrari would bring the race home today. But nevertheless, it doesn't change the fact that in the end, he made a mistake, completely left the track and rejoined the track (partially out of control) and in doing so, blocking Hamilton at the same time. If there had not been a wall, or the track been wider, Hamilton would have easily passed. He didn't because he avoided a collision. If this had happened at i.e. the hair-pin - same result. There's no way he would have held on to his position.

The stewards job is not to take into account who should have won the race or how many points are at stake. They should judge the incident independently and in complete isolation, which IMO they did.

I feel gutted for Vettel, I really am, but simply because a Ferrari win would have been marvellous for the sport does not change the fact that he did make a mistake under severe pressure and was lucky not to hit a wall or cause a collision with Lewis. Yet he still rejoined in a way that caused the driver he was racing and who forced him into that error in the first place to take avoiding action.

You make a mistake, you pay. Hamilton locked up multiple times at the hair pin and lost time. That's the way it is. I have no doubt, if the gap had been larger and Hamilton had not been on Vettels tail, the incident would have gone unpunished. Yet the error was a direct result of the pressure Hamilton put Vettel under and thus, it wouldn't be fair to let that slide without consequence simply because we all wanted Vettel to win.

We can't simply bend or change the rules because we wanted "a race". Legitimate and authentic racing requires rules and these rules are for the safety and for the fairness of all who participate. I feel most who are slamming the stewards about the rules are doing so from an emotional point of view and not because it was without merit.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
#Team44 supporter

User avatar
Sieper
109
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:19 pm

Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post

What arguments are there to be had? As soon as the last of your 4 wheels leave the track (by your own admission) you have the obligation to rejoin safely, no matter what. Vettel was unable to do so (was also neigh on impossible) but that doesn’t make a difference) rejoining unsafely. Penalty.

That is how it works nowadays. Every infringement (and Some seem harsher hit the others, that is why they are now so overly strict and getting still more so I think) —> penalty.
Just a personal interest, a Family recreating a WW2 May 1940 Dutch warbird from scratch: https://www.facebook.com/FlyingFokkerD21/

dans79
dans79
248
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:33 pm
Location: USA

Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post

turbof1 wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:30 am
I don't care about their personal motivations.
I think Personal motivations plays a huge part in what they say.

It's no different than when jackie makes ridiculous statements. He says something inflammatory and then gets a bunch of attention for a while!
160 96 91 6

Diesel
Diesel
72
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 11:27 pm
Location: ...

Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post

Unc1eM0nty wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:08 am
Bored already, wonder how many pages this thread will run to
I'll take that action, 62 pages.

On the race, agree with the decision or not, Vettel put himself in the position through another mistake. Great move swapping the first and second place boards over, I did think that was quite funny.

Hamilton has always been keen to have other teams in the mix, and if you look at today's result you can perhaps guess why. When Mercedes are dominating, Bottas is right there finishing P2. When a team like Ferrari is in the mix, Bottas slips back and scores fewer points.

Ferrari were closer this weekend, but they still didn't look quicker in race trim. I don't think they are championship contenders, they'd need to start dominating races and it just doesn't look possible right now. Hamilton's WDC rival is Bottas, and today he looked ordinary.
"Unbelievable how silly this Formula 1 is these days, with this stupid overtakes."
—Sebastian Vettel, 2012 US GP

V12-POWER
V12-POWER
-3
Joined: Sat May 30, 2015 4:48 am

Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post

komninosm wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:27 am

Yup exactly. The fake news narration will continue as it has sway with some fans.

People have commented here that the penalty was too harsh. I disagree. It wasn't harsh enough perhaps.
We would do well to remember what happened to Schumacher in 1997 when he was stripped of ALL his points and basically banned from the championship ladder for this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=001m8vW9-fs
And here's the text of the story:
https://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns01331.html

Vettel has done more than enough over the past couple of years to imitate his "role model" and has gotten off way too lightly. And this has emboldened some of the fans too, who exhibit bad behavior.
Good job comparing a 100% deliberate crash that is obvious and happened on track, also dont forget it was a move for the championship. Vettel movements to the right don't seem deliberate at all, specially because his counter steering was almost full lock and the rear wasn't planted to the ground, It all happened on the transition of grass to the asphalt, when you make such movements with the steering wheel it means one thing, the car wasn't there. So whoever who is saying he went straight to the wall on purpose is wrong. Or do you really think you're going to go almost full lock to veer to one side? Really? People here underestimate these cars or think they have 900 degree steering. So sad for a "technical" site

I mean, im not a fan of anyone myself but damn some people here do like to say nonsense things.

The only reasonable argument is safe rejoining. This doesnt change the fact current rules are silly if they wont allow situations like this one, in a racing sport, might as well have an "excuse me" button to let other drivers pass "safely"

komninosm
komninosm
0
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2009 5:41 pm
Location: Macedonia

Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post

BillS wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 9:59 pm
timbo wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 9:50 pm
I remember there was a message to Seb about some reading on the dashboard being correct and that he had to take action for it.
I wonder if he had to save fuel in the second half of the race.
I would say that's the reason, Seb was lift & coasting a bit more than Lewis even before that team radio.
So did Vettel run out of fuel in the end or not? Was there enough fuel to test him? Was he weighted? Why did he park his car in the wrong place and why did he push it on foot afterwards? And where did he leave it in the end? And did he break any more rules than apparent?

ferenc_k
ferenc_k
0
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:45 am

Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post

I really, really, really wish Merc win all the races. To open all official eyes finally, that something is really wrong. If it would not be obvious. The other teams are not went dumb mysteriously. None of the teams could fight against them since the turbo era started. It is not an accident. I want racing. There is no racing anymore. There is DRS. The DRS shows all too well how bad is the turbo era.

komninosm
komninosm
0
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2009 5:41 pm
Location: Macedonia

Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post

V12-POWER wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:40 am
komninosm wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:27 am

Yup exactly. The fake news narration will continue as it has sway with some fans.

People have commented here that the penalty was too harsh. I disagree. It wasn't harsh enough perhaps.
We would do well to remember what happened to Schumacher in 1997 when he was stripped of ALL his points and basically banned from the championship ladder for this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=001m8vW9-fs
And here's the text of the story:
https://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns01331.html

Vettel has done more than enough over the past couple of years to imitate his "role model" and has gotten off way too lightly. And this has emboldened some of the fans too, who exhibit bad behavior.
Good job comparing a 100% deliberate crash that is obvious and happened on track, also dont forget it was a move for the championship. Vettel movements to the right don't seem deliberate at all, specially because his counter steering was almost full lock and the rear wasn't planted to the ground, It all happened on the transition of grass to the asphalt, when you make such movements with the steering wheel it means one thing, the car wasn't there. So whoever who is saying he went straight to the wall on purpose is wrong. Or do you really think you're going to go almost full lock to veer to one side? Really? People here underestimate these cars or think they have 900 degree steering. So sad for a "technical" site

I mean, im not a fan of anyone myself but damn some people here do like to say nonsense things.

The only reasonable argument is safe rejoining. This doesnt change the fact current rules are silly if they wont allow situations like this one, in a racing sport, might as well have an "excuse me" button to let other drivers pass "safely"
Spare us your [sad for a "technical" site] crocodile tears.
You know damn well if Vettel did not accelerate so much right upon entering the racetrack he would be able to enter it safely and not oversteer so much. Also his last move to the right was very deliberate indeed and meant to push Hamilton to the wall and crash if necessary. Vettel has done this before, even in the pits once.
(Also note I didn't say this incident alone was equivalent to Schumacher's, I said there's a pattern there of Vettel making bad choices and that FIA punishments today are rather light compared to the past. Some commentators seem to think the opposite, but they are wrong.)

Even the maligned Schumacher eventually admitted guilt and apologized. Whether it was for pushing Barrichelo to the wall or for 1997 controversy or 1994. Vettel has not been punished properly and hasn't made amends.
In my book Vettel is a childish black sheep and not one of the greats. And he's leading many fans down a dark path too.
Last edited by komninosm on Mon Jun 10, 2019 1:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

dans79
dans79
248
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:33 pm
Location: USA

Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post

V12-POWER wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:40 am
The only reasonable argument is safe rejoining. This doesnt change the fact current rules are silly if they wont allow situations like this one, in a racing sport, might as well have an "excuse me" button to let other drivers pass "safely"
making rules situational, or open to interpretation based on circumstances is exactly what shouldn't be allowed to happen.

If rules can be ignored or explained away then there's no point in even having them!
160 96 91 6

Wynters
Wynters
69
Joined: Sun May 15, 2016 1:49 pm

Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post

NathanOlder wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:57 pm
Wynters wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:53 pm
If it was a bad idea, why didn't Leclerc undercut to force Hamilton to do it?
If it was a bad idea, it wouldn't have forced Hamilton to pit. As everyone would have known it was a bad idea
In which case, Hamilton pits 4-5 laps later and is now stuck behind Leclerc whilst Vettel drives off into the distance. Net win for Ferrari, even after Hamilton passes Leclerc to take 2nd back. After all, who would be pressuring a slow-at-the-end Leclerc for 3rd? Bottas? He couldn't even stay in Leclerc's pit window.
Last edited by Wynters on Mon Jun 10, 2019 1:33 am, edited 4 times in total.

User avatar
Phil
425
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:22 pm

Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post

Excellent video by Peter Windsor on the incident:

Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
#Team44 supporter

Hammerfist
Hammerfist
4
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2017 3:18 am

Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post

izzy wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 11:15 pm
ringo wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 11:01 pm
izzy wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:54 pm

well yes it's true he had to rejoin the track, but did he need to go right across to the wall? when I re-watch it i don't think so. Karun was going on about his oversteer but the car wasn't pointing away from the wall in oversteer, it was pointing along the track quite straight, then Seb steered it right, making it point towards the wall

it was instinct obviously and you can understand it, but he had the option imo
I don't think Karun realized at the time, that the oversteer was caused by Vettel pinning the throttle pedal to get back onto the track. Which by itself proves that Vettel was in no danger of hitting the wall on the right. Vettel pretty much was in full control until the self induced oversteer moment. Vettel was more mindful of keeping P1 than hitting the wall.
Anyhow i can't understand why Gasly is behind Verstappen in the standings. :shock:
They need to give Kyvatt that seat.
i don't think there even was any oversteer really, and yes he was defending wasn't he. i mean if you stop this at the last frame of Lewis' onboard at 2s, Seb is steering left, not right
[https://twitter.com/i/status/1137828967237468161
So listening to the radio message Vettel thought Hamilton would have passed him if he had gone on the inside? LOL

There was no way for Hamilton to go with the way Vettel just barged into the track, he could only avoid him as he was completely blocked. Lesser drivers might have crashed there imho.

komninosm
komninosm
0
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2009 5:41 pm
Location: Macedonia

Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post

Brake Horse Power wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:07 pm
I don't like the penalty. If you talk about pure safety.. If a steward thinks this was unsafe you can also blame Hamilton as he was in full control of his car. He could have braked a second earlier bit he didn't. And it makes sense he didn't because he is a racing driver. But he could have avoided himself being in this 'dangerous' situation.
Hamilton was driving on the racing line, he was not re-entering the track after running outside on the grass.
This is the level of sophistry that Vettel's behavior is enforcing.

User avatar
TAG
118
Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2014 3:18 pm
Location: in a good place

Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post

ferenc_k wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:59 am
I really, really, really wish Merc win all the races. To open all official eyes finally, that something is really wrong. If it would not be obvious. The other teams are not went dumb mysteriously. None of the teams could fight against them since the turbo era started. It is not an accident. I want racing. There is no racing anymore. There is DRS. The DRS shows all too well how bad is the turbo era.
Those Turbos of 2011 were something else wern't they? :wtf:
माकडाच्या हाती कोलीत

roon
roon
449
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2016 6:04 pm

Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post

Overhead view at 3:37.



A car over and after grass will tend to go straight due to low traction. Immediate turning left upon track reentry while trying to decelerate seems not realistic. Driver will maximize straight line deceleration before turn-in.

The dangerous re-entry terminology and Ham immediately referencing it is lame. If this were a tarmac chicane where you could actually gain time by corner cutting, it would apply. But driver error plus loss of traction over grass is simply an incidental re-entry without laptime nor position benefit. Drivers should dodge compromised vehicle by predicting their trajectories. Ham may have been traction or reaction time limited.

The dangerous part was vettel losing control prior to the corner and going of track. Precedent here is: non-penalty errors can lead to unintentional events that do incur penalties.

Any historical examples of 'accidental intent?'

Grosjean's re-entry on lap one after throwing debris out of his cockpit should seemingly aslo incur a re-entry penalty.
Last edited by roon on Mon Jun 10, 2019 1:49 am, edited 1 time in total.