Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Mudflap wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 1:01 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 11:46 am
With open waste-gates (free load mode/electric supercharging mode) at full fueling the MGU-K and MGU-H are sharing battery (ES) power. Maximum battery (ES) power is regulated by the rules.
Wrong again.
Only maximum MGUK power is limited hence maximum ESS power (MGUK + MGUH) is unlimited.
[/quot

What is ESS?
When MGU-K and MGU-H are sharing battery (ES) power the battery (ES) power is per regulated by the rules.

saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 5:11 pm
NL_Fer wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 4:05 pm
Driving with open wastegates means there is no energy recovery from the mgu-h....
not so
there is (some) energy recovery without any difference in mean pressure across the turbine
because of the kinetic energy of the exhaust pulses
the so-called blowdown action of a turbine
how much ? - well 15000 aircraft engines gained up to 18% 'free' power this way
(ok they had a lower expansion ratio as the CR was only 7:1)
The 15000 aircraft engines that gained up to 18% free power had no waste-gates but direct exhaust of 6 cylinders each driving a one of 3 turbines turbine of which all three were connected to the crankshaft.

63l8qrrfy6
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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saviour stivala wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 6:14 pm
Mudflap wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 1:01 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 11:46 am
With open waste-gates (free load mode/electric supercharging mode) at full fueling the MGU-K and MGU-H are sharing battery (ES) power. Maximum battery (ES) power is regulated by the rules.
Wrong again.
Only maximum MGUK power is limited hence maximum ESS power (MGUK + MGUH) is unlimited.
What is ESS?
When MGU-K and MGU-H are sharing battery (ES) power the battery (ES) power is per regulated by the rules.
ESS = energy store system = battery.

And again, no , battery power is not regulated by the rules. The energy deployment is, not the power( the rate at which the energy is deployed).
Last edited by 63l8qrrfy6 on Sun Sep 22, 2019 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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saviour stivala wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 7:18 pm
The 15000 aircraft engines that gained up to 18% free power had no waste-gates but direct exhaust of 6 cylinders each driving a one of 3 turbines turbine of which all three were connected to the crankshaft.
if you are disagreeing with the point that I made can you explain your reasoning ?
Wright showed their engines had essentially the same mean exhaust pressure above and below the turbines
ie there was no 'back pressure'

saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 9:05 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 7:18 pm
The 15000 aircraft engines that gained up to 18% free power had no waste-gates but direct exhaust of 6 cylinders each driving a one of 3 turbines turbine of which all three were connected to the crankshaft.
if you are disagreeing with the point that I made can you explain your reasoning ?
Wright showed their engines had essentially the same mean exhaust pressure above and below the turbines
ie there was no 'back pressure'
There was also not only no waste-gates to run the engine with waste-gates open but also the full exhaust gasses produced by combustion of six cylinders pumping in each of the three turbines connected to the crankshaft.

saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Mudflap wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 8:44 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 6:14 pm
Mudflap wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 1:01 pm


Wrong again.
Only maximum MGUK power is limited hence maximum ESS power (MGUK + MGUH) is unlimited.
What is ESS?
When MGU-K and MGU-H are sharing battery (ES) power the battery (ES) power is per regulated by the rules.
ESS = energy store system = battery.

And again, no , battery power is not regulated by the rules. The energy deployment is, not the power( the rate at which the energy is deployed).
When in free load mode/electric supercharging mode with waste-gates open and at full fueling and the 'K' and 'H' are sharing battery/ES power, what is the maximum that the 'K' can be supplied with from the battery/ES? That supply to the 'K' is at the same time also being shared by the 'H'.

63l8qrrfy6
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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saviour stivala wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 9:40 pm
Mudflap wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 8:44 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 6:14 pm


What is ESS?
When MGU-K and MGU-H are sharing battery (ES) power the battery (ES) power is per regulated by the rules.
ESS = energy store system = battery.

And again, no , battery power is not regulated by the rules. The energy deployment is, not the power( the rate at which the energy is deployed).
When in free load mode/electric supercharging mode with waste-gates open and at full fueling and the 'K' and 'H' are sharing battery/ES power, what is the maximum that the 'K' can be supplied with from the battery/ES? That supply to the 'K' is at the same time also being shared by the 'H'.
Nonsense, how did you come up with this?

K supply is 120 kw and H supply is 100 kw or so based on the numbers discussed on the forum. So ES power would be 220 kW in this case, but in reality nothing is stopping manufacturers running the H at 200 kw for a total of 320 kw if they wanted to for whatever reason.

Yes that will drain the battery very quickly but it is not against the rules in any way.

saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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I never said this or that is against the rules neither mentioned any numbers. What I said was that running with waste-gates open (free load mode/electric supercharging mode) ‘K’ and ‘H’ will be sharing battery/ES power and that battery/ES power is regulated by the rules. The question is, is battery/ES power regulated by rules or not?.

Slo Poke
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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I really don’t understand all the fuss hereabouts as Ferrari’s speed has nothing to do with the engine/pu. Ferrari have merely perfected their version of Party Mode, which in a sense, has to have ended up exactly as merc’s.
The impressive thing about it for me, is how well they’ve managed to engineer into it all another hero, whilst not-so-much the hero engineers.

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subcritical71
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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saviour stivala wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 11:26 am
I never said this or that is against the rules neither mentioned any numbers. What I said was that running with waste-gates open (free load mode/electric supercharging mode) ‘K’ and ‘H’ will be sharing battery/ES power and that battery/ES power is regulated by the rules. The question is, is battery/ES power regulated by rules or not?.
No... The only items in the PU which are power regulated are the MGU-K and the non-ERS Energy Store.

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henry
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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subcritical71 wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:32 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 11:26 am
I never said this or that is against the rules neither mentioned any numbers. What I said was that running with waste-gates open (free load mode/electric supercharging mode) ‘K’ and ‘H’ will be sharing battery/ES power and that battery/ES power is regulated by the rules. The question is, is battery/ES power regulated by rules or not?.
No... The only items in the PU which are power regulated are the MGU-K and the non-ERS Energy Store.
Or from another perspective the ONLY electrical constraints on the ES are the per lap 4MJ SOC and the catch all max 1000volt for the whole car.
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saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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So battery/ES state of charge is regulated at 4MJ per lap, 4MJ per lap 'OUT'. so with waste-gates open (free load mode/electric supercharging mode) with 'K' and 'H' sharing battery/ES power, they will be sharing a maximum as regulated by the rules, of 4MJ per lap.

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subcritical71
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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saviour stivala wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 1:07 pm
So battery/ES state of charge is regulated at 4MJ per lap, 4MJ per lap 'OUT'. so with waste-gates open (free load mode/electric supercharging mode) with 'K' and 'H' sharing battery/ES power, they will be sharing a maximum as regulated by the rules, of 4MJ per lap.
No. Wrong. You are confusing power and energy. Your previous question asked about power, and your quoted response here still says power and MJ -> they are not the same. It’s like saying my cars weight is 400hp. Again, the battery has no power limit (power has the units kW, and energy J). The limits imposed on the battery are Energy (SOC) and Voltage. This is electrical basics.

Additionally, the K is only able to extract 4MJ of energy from the battery per lap, the H can extract unlimited, so the ‘shared’ battery/es energy isn’t limited at 4MJ, it’s 4MJ for the K and Unlimited for the H.

saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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OK, I used the word ‘power’ instead of the electric denomination ‘MJ’ but everybody ...<personal stuff removed>... understand what I was talking about. Anyhow. The battery/ES maximum state of charge is regulated at 4MJ. Battery/ES maximum out to ‘K’ is regulated at 4MJ per lap. So when with waste-gates are open and both ‘K’ and ‘H’ are sharing battery/ES ‘power’ (output) the ‘K’ can make use of 4MJ per lap. Where does the ‘H’ gets its electrical ‘power’ supply from?.

Dr. Acula
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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saviour stivala wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 1:07 pm
So battery/ES state of charge is regulated at 4MJ per lap, 4MJ per lap 'OUT'. so with waste-gates open (free load mode/electric supercharging mode) with 'K' and 'H' sharing battery/ES power, they will be sharing a maximum as regulated by the rules, of 4MJ per lap.
It's actually quite simple.

The state of charge of the ES can vary by 4 MJ. There is no timeconstrains to that. You can charge and discharge as fast as you want and as many times per lap as you want. So if you can manage to charge and discharge the whole 4MJ 3 times per lap you are allowed to do so.

The MGU-K is allowed to directly pull 4MJ per lap from the ES and charge it up by 2MJ per lap with a maximum power of 120kW.
The energyflow to the MGU-H isn't limited in any way by the rules.