E-boost is a mode that is mixed with others by the strategy. In both qualifying and lap one the difference in the power(kW) will be slight but on lap one it would appear that the strategy used a higher proportion of the e-boost and other SOC using modes. The objectives are different. In Qualifying the objective is clear, spread the SOC over the whole lap to achieve the lowest lap time. Perhaps the lap one objective is to maintain position and hopefully make a break early in the lap that can then be nursed. If everyone else is pursuing the same strategy, heavy use of SOC, there’s little risk.MtthsMlw wrote: ↑24 Sep 2019, 19:47Due to the lighting in Singapore it is quite easy to see the dash of the steering wheel.
What I found interesting is that Vettel's battery was nearly empty going in to turn 7 on the first lap. He hadn't used that much energy at the same point in Q3. He got to the straight (on first lap) with the same SOC but used quite a bit more energy on it than in Q3.
For sure in Quali you're chaising the best laptime and on the first lap you want to maximise your chances to overtake on the straight.
But wouldn't that mean that Ferrari isn't using max. deployment in kW there in Q3 though?
I guess in both cases the PU is in e-boost mode but one uses more energy than the other? Could that be explained by fuel load? Or is there a different reasoning behind it?
Thank you for your answer.henry wrote: ↑24 Sep 2019, 20:06E-boost is a mode that is mixed with others by the strategy. In both qualifying and lap one the difference in the power(kW) will be slight but on lap one it would appear that the strategy used a higher proportion of the e-boost and other SOC using modes. The objectives are different. In Qualifying the objective is clear, spread the SOC over the whole lap to achieve the lowest lap time. Perhaps the lap one objective is to maintain position and hopefully make a break early in the lap that can then be nursed. If everyone else is pursuing the same strategy, heavy use of SOC, there’s little risk.MtthsMlw wrote: ↑24 Sep 2019, 19:47Due to the lighting in Singapore it is quite easy to see the dash of the steering wheel.
What I found interesting is that Vettel's battery was nearly empty going in to turn 7 on the first lap. He hadn't used that much energy at the same point in Q3. He got to the straight (on first lap) with the same SOC but used quite a bit more energy on it than in Q3.
For sure in Quali you're chaising the best laptime and on the first lap you want to maximise your chances to overtake on the straight.
But wouldn't that mean that Ferrari isn't using max. deployment in kW there in Q3 though?
I guess in both cases the PU is in e-boost mode but one uses more energy than the other? Could that be explained by fuel load? Or is there a different reasoning behind it?
It could be possible they use other ignition timing, other combustion modes in Q3. Other modes which are better to recharge the battery during the lap, without losing performance. These modes generate more heat, which therefore can only be used a single lap, with a cooling (out)lap immediatly after.MtthsMlw wrote: ↑24 Sep 2019, 19:47Due to the lighting in Singapore it is quite easy to see the dash of the steering wheel.
What I found interesting is that Vettel's battery was nearly empty going in to turn 7 on the first lap. He hadn't used that much energy at the same point in Q3. He got to the straight (on first lap) with the same SOC but used quite a bit more energy on it than in Q3.
For sure in Quali you're chaising the best laptime and on the first lap you want to maximise your chances to overtake on the straight.
But wouldn't that mean that Ferrari isn't using max. deployment in kW there in Q3 though?
I guess in both cases the PU is in e-boost mode but one uses more energy than the other? Could that be explained by fuel load? Or is there a different reasoning behind it?
Not "per lap". The 4 MJ (ES SOC) can be discharged and recharged as many times as you want. There is a limit on energy sent to the K from the ES however but that is a separate issue.saviour stivala wrote: ↑24 Sep 2019, 04:27YES and Correct. Yes With a fully charged battery/ES (4MJ as permitted by the rules) the 'K' is permitted by the rules to use 120 KW for 33.33 seconds per lap. And also Yes the 4MJ SOC limited by the rules puts a short time limit on electric supercharging mode when running with waste-gates open because both 'K' and 'H' are sharing battery/ES power.gruntguru wrote: ↑24 Sep 2019, 00:00I think I understand what you are saying. Yes the 4 MJ SOC limit puts a reasonably short time limit on electric supercharger mode.saviour stivala wrote: ↑23 Sep 2019, 18:30
Correct. but the problem re this "waste-gates open and both 'K' and 'H' are sharing battery/ES power subject is. both 'K' and 'H' are deploying at the same time. and as far as I know neither the 'K' nor the 'H' can deploy and harvest at the same time. so when they are both deploying with waste-gates open they are sharing the maximum allowed 4MJ battery/ES stored power.
Let's say the ES is fully charged. If the K is used at 120 kW to accelerate, it can be run for 33.3 seconds before the ES SOC hits the bottom and K deployment has to stop. If electric supercharger mode is used and power draw is 120 + 100 = 220 kW, the ES will be empty after 18.2 seconds. Neither mode can be used again until the ES SOC has been increased above zero.
Yes, the 4 MJ SOC can be discharged and recharged as may time as they can, and yes, there is a limit on energy (4 MJ per lap) that can be sent to the 'K' from the ES. Also Yes 4 MJ is 120KW for 33.33 seconds per lap (ES-to-MGU-K). But, the MGU-H can put ‘unlimited’ generated energy onto/into the MGU-K for deployment which results in a longer period of 120KW of deployment. By 2018 about 60%of energy used was coming from the MGU-H. If 60% was coming from MGU-H, and assuming the permitted 2 MJ could be harvest by the MGU-K, this was leaving 5 MJ per lap.gruntguru wrote: ↑25 Sep 2019, 00:19Not "per lap". The 4 MJ (ES SOC) can be discharged and recharged as many times as you want. There is a limit on energy sent to the K from the ES however but that is a separate issue.saviour stivala wrote: ↑24 Sep 2019, 04:27YES and Correct. Yes With a fully charged battery/ES (4MJ as permitted by the rules) the 'K' is permitted by the rules to use 120 KW for 33.33 seconds per lap. And also Yes the 4MJ SOC limited by the rules puts a short time limit on electric supercharging mode when running with waste-gates open because both 'K' and 'H' are sharing battery/ES power.gruntguru wrote: ↑24 Sep 2019, 00:00I think I understand what you are saying. Yes the 4 MJ SOC limit puts a reasonably short time limit on electric supercharger mode.
Let's say the ES is fully charged. If the K is used at 120 kW to accelerate, it can be run for 33.3 seconds before the ES SOC hits the bottom and K deployment has to stop. If electric supercharger mode is used and power draw is 120 + 100 = 220 kW, the ES will be empty after 18.2 seconds. Neither mode can be used again until the ES SOC has been increased above zero.
This is a dejavù.. how many times have u been explained the energy flow and all the limitation of the rules?.. not many enough it seems!saviour stivala wrote: ↑25 Sep 2019, 05:22Yes, the 4 MJ SOC can be discharged and recharged as may time as they can, and yes, there is a limit on energy (4 MJ per lap) that can be sent to the 'K' from the ES. Also Yes 4 MJ is 120KW for 33.33 seconds per lap (ES-to-MGU-K). But, the MGU-H can put ‘unlimited’ generated energy onto/into the MGU-K for deployment which results in a longer period of 120KW of deployment. By 2018 about 60%of energy used was coming from the MGU-H. If 60% was coming from MGU-H, and assuming the permitted 2 MJ could be harvest by the MGU-K, this was leaving 5 MJ per lap.gruntguru wrote: ↑25 Sep 2019, 00:19Not "per lap". The 4 MJ (ES SOC) can be discharged and recharged as many times as you want. There is a limit on energy sent to the K from the ES however but that is a separate issue.saviour stivala wrote: ↑24 Sep 2019, 04:27
YES and Correct. Yes With a fully charged battery/ES (4MJ as permitted by the rules) the 'K' is permitted by the rules to use 120 KW for 33.33 seconds per lap. And also Yes the 4MJ SOC limited by the rules puts a short time limit on electric supercharging mode when running with waste-gates open because both 'K' and 'H' are sharing battery/ES power.
I suspect that by today the best out there can produce 6 MJ deployment in a lap in qualifying mode
Correct. I might disagree slightly with your numbers but not with the mechanisms you describe.saviour stivala wrote: ↑25 Sep 2019, 05:22Yes, the 4 MJ SOC can be discharged and recharged as may time as they can, and yes, there is a limit on energy (4 MJ per lap) that can be sent to the 'K' from the ES. Also Yes 4 MJ is 120KW for 33.33 seconds per lap (ES-to-MGU-K). But, the MGU-H can put ‘unlimited’ generated energy onto/into the MGU-K for deployment which results in a longer period of 120KW of deployment. By 2018 about 60%of energy used was coming from the MGU-H. If 60% was coming from MGU-H, and assuming the permitted 2 MJ could be harvest by the MGU-K, this was leaving 5 MJ per lap.gruntguru wrote: ↑25 Sep 2019, 00:19Not "per lap". The 4 MJ (ES SOC) can be discharged and recharged as many times as you want. There is a limit on energy sent to the K from the ES however but that is a separate issue.saviour stivala wrote: ↑24 Sep 2019, 04:27
YES and Correct. Yes With a fully charged battery/ES (4MJ as permitted by the rules) the 'K' is permitted by the rules to use 120 KW for 33.33 seconds per lap. And also Yes the 4MJ SOC limited by the rules puts a short time limit on electric supercharging mode when running with waste-gates open because both 'K' and 'H' are sharing battery/ES power.
I suspect that by today the best out there can produce 6 MJ deployment in a lap in qualifying mode
Will appreciate you please explain the energy flow and all the limitations of the rules and on your wat pick-up anything wrong or incorrect in the above post.Polite wrote: ↑25 Sep 2019, 09:47This is a dejavù.. how many times have u been explained the energy flow and all the limitation of the rules?.. not many enough it seems!saviour stivala wrote: ↑25 Sep 2019, 05:22Yes, the 4 MJ SOC can be discharged and recharged as may time as they can, and yes, there is a limit on energy (4 MJ per lap) that can be sent to the 'K' from the ES. Also Yes 4 MJ is 120KW for 33.33 seconds per lap (ES-to-MGU-K). But, the MGU-H can put ‘unlimited’ generated energy onto/into the MGU-K for deployment which results in a longer period of 120KW of deployment. By 2018 about 60%of energy used was coming from the MGU-H. If 60% was coming from MGU-H, and assuming the permitted 2 MJ could be harvest by the MGU-K, this was leaving 5 MJ per lap.
I suspect that by today the best out there can produce 6 MJ deployment in a lap in qualifying mode
henry wrote: ↑25 Sep 2019, 10:16Correct. I might disagree slightly with your numbers but not with the mechanisms you describe.saviour stivala wrote: ↑25 Sep 2019, 05:22Yes, the 4 MJ SOC can be discharged and recharged as may time as they can, and yes, there is a limit on energy (4 MJ per lap) that can be sent to the 'K' from the ES. Also Yes 4 MJ is 120KW for 33.33 seconds per lap (ES-to-MGU-K). But, the MGU-H can put ‘unlimited’ generated energy onto/into the MGU-K for deployment which results in a longer period of 120KW of deployment. By 2018 about 60%of energy used was coming from the MGU-H. If 60% was coming from MGU-H, and assuming the permitted 2 MJ could be harvest by the MGU-K, this was leaving 5 MJ per lap.
I suspect that by today the best out there can produce 6 MJ deployment in a lap in qualifying mode
I would only add that some of the 60% from the MGU-H is stored and goes to power the electric supercharge mode.
While I haven't seen the onboard video yet, I assume Vettel simply used overtake button, since he was fighting Hamilton.henry wrote: ↑24 Sep 2019, 20:06E-boost is a mode that is mixed with others by the strategy. In both qualifying and lap one the difference in the power(kW) will be slight but on lap one it would appear that the strategy used a higher proportion of the e-boost and other SOC using modes. The objectives are different. In Qualifying the objective is clear, spread the SOC over the whole lap to achieve the lowest lap time. Perhaps the lap one objective is to maintain position and hopefully make a break early in the lap that can then be nursed. If everyone else is pursuing the same strategy, heavy use of SOC, there’s little risk.MtthsMlw wrote: ↑24 Sep 2019, 19:47Due to the lighting in Singapore it is quite easy to see the dash of the steering wheel.
What I found interesting is that Vettel's battery was nearly empty going in to turn 7 on the first lap. He hadn't used that much energy at the same point in Q3. He got to the straight (on first lap) with the same SOC but used quite a bit more energy on it than in Q3.
For sure in Quali you're chaising the best laptime and on the first lap you want to maximise your chances to overtake on the straight.
But wouldn't that mean that Ferrari isn't using max. deployment in kW there in Q3 though?
I guess in both cases the PU is in e-boost mode but one uses more energy than the other? Could that be explained by fuel load? Or is there a different reasoning behind it?
I also haven’t seen the footage. I was simply responding to @MtthsMlw with what I believe to be a plausible explanation.sosic2121 wrote: ↑25 Sep 2019, 10:54While I haven't seen the onboard video yet, I assume Vettel simply used overtake button, since he was fighting Hamilton.henry wrote: ↑24 Sep 2019, 20:06E-boost is a mode that is mixed with others by the strategy. In both qualifying and lap one the difference in the power(kW) will be slight but on lap one it would appear that the strategy used a higher proportion of the e-boost and other SOC using modes. The objectives are different. In Qualifying the objective is clear, spread the SOC over the whole lap to achieve the lowest lap time. Perhaps the lap one objective is to maintain position and hopefully make a break early in the lap that can then be nursed. If everyone else is pursuing the same strategy, heavy use of SOC, there’s little risk.MtthsMlw wrote: ↑24 Sep 2019, 19:47Due to the lighting in Singapore it is quite easy to see the dash of the steering wheel.
What I found interesting is that Vettel's battery was nearly empty going in to turn 7 on the first lap. He hadn't used that much energy at the same point in Q3. He got to the straight (on first lap) with the same SOC but used quite a bit more energy on it than in Q3.
For sure in Quali you're chaising the best laptime and on the first lap you want to maximise your chances to overtake on the straight.
But wouldn't that mean that Ferrari isn't using max. deployment in kW there in Q3 though?
I guess in both cases the PU is in e-boost mode but one uses more energy than the other? Could that be explained by fuel load? Or is there a different reasoning behind it?
I assume they start the race in highest mode(from fuel point of view) since there is no penalty for carrying that extra fuel around, like there is later in the race.
So they can use hot-blowing or motor-generating every time throttle is not at 100%.
But from e. energy point of view, I see no benefit in running out of battery by T7 L1.
there must be 3 'wires' (terminal connections) plus transducer signal-to-logic wires regardless of whether the MGs are ....