2019 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, 27 - 29 September

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ENGINE TUNER
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Re: 2019 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, 27 - 29 September

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Mandrake wrote:
30 Sep 2019, 16:42
ENGINE TUNER wrote:
30 Sep 2019, 16:37
Mandrake wrote:
30 Sep 2019, 16:33


Last year everyone was on equal tires. So this year the prerequisite with Mercs on different tires makes the whole story moot as strategic options this year were completely different. You had to open a gap as big as possible to account for the soft tire advantage. Vettel was able to open a gap of 7 seconds to Hamilton, LEC wasn't.
Only because he was in clear air, which he got because LEC gave him his slipstream. If LEC was ahead after T2 then he could have opened the 7s, or larger gap.
Any car gives a slipstream. It was the smart choice to give it to your team mate rather than external competition. In any scenario VET would have been able to pick up the slipstream as he was already past Hamilton.

LEC wasn't able to turn up the pace when asked to push. Yet in the same situation towards the end of the race when he could not pass Bottas he was able to do so. And his tires were more shot than in the first stint looking at the cars drifty body language. So I sincerely doubt that LEC had Vettels pace in the first stint.
The 2018 sochi start shows that LEC CLEARLY CHOSE to give VET a tow rather than give it to HAM. VET'S start was no better than LEC'S, and it was only better than HAM'S because he had the faster tires and cleaner racing line. If LEC didn't give VET the slipstream HAM with the slipstream would have repassed VET going into T2. VET was not faster than LEC, not in Sochi, not in Singapore, not in Monza and not in Spa.

foxmulder_ms
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Re: 2019 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, 27 - 29 September

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1) Reverse grid is terrible but terrible idea.

2) Ideas about changing safety car procedures are just a mark of being sour grapes.

3) Ferraris, the team order champions, are out of their minds trying to force the order of the drivers all the time. These actions are out right petty politics. Team orders that favored Vettel at the beginning of the season were MISTAKES and recent orders favoring Leclerc are MISTAKES too. They really did not deserve the win. Vettel was right. Without any team orders he could have passed Leclerc on 1st corner anyway. It is not like Leclerc applied the brakes earlier. lol. Because of medium tires Mercs had terrible start so they were a nonissue anyway.

4) Hamilton and Merc is pretty perfect. Hamilton won this race by the great qualy lab on Saturday and basically keeping up with Ferraris on *faster* tires during the first stint. BRAVO! Epic drive

5) Ferrari domination of last races are not true. Like it was not true Merc has domination in first 5-6 races. They are really equally matched like last year. Difference is at drivers/team/luck and strategies, not the cars.

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dans79
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Re: 2019 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, 27 - 29 September

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Just_a_fan wrote:
30 Sep 2019, 16:25
ENGINE TUNER wrote:
30 Sep 2019, 15:33
]
You just don't get it do you? With a reversed grid, it wouldn't just be LEC behind BOT and HAM, BOT and HAM would also be behind slower cars and would be forced to overtake them while defending. IT WOULD NOT BE THE SAME.
Oh, I get it. It's contrived nonsense, that's what it is.
The entire reverse grid concept is moronic, I don't care who came up with it, or who thinks its a good idea.


Lets look at it with Susuka as an example. If we replaced q3 with a reverse grid sprint race the starting line up would be as follows.
  1. Ric
  2. Nor
  3. Alb
  4. Sai
  5. Gas
  6. Vet
  7. Ver
  8. Lec
  9. Bot
  10. Ham
Their is no way in hel* anyone that still has a mathematical shot at the WDC starts the actual race in p1. I'd be shocked if any of the contenders made it above P3.

A lot of naive people are saying the 2021 rules will make it so that it won't be hard to follow other cars and thus overtaking will be easier. However we have heard all this before, like back in 2010/11 when the line was DRS will make overtaking easier. It did for a year or two, but we are right back to where we where before.

The most comical thing to me is that so many people think the 2021 rules will fix everything because the FIA and FOM/Liberty say it will. The simple fact is the teams have hundreds of engineers, and will be actively working to undo/surpass anything the fia or Liberty can come up with. it's a simple numbers game the FIA is out numbed by several orders of magnitude.
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NathanOlder
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Re: 2019 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, 27 - 29 September

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Mandrake wrote:
30 Sep 2019, 16:33
ENGINE TUNER wrote:
30 Sep 2019, 15:57
NathanOlder wrote:
30 Sep 2019, 10:58

1 year ago, Merc switched their 2 cars, while Vettel was only 1.5 seconds behind. So when on lap 7, Leclerc was 1.0 behind Vettel, and Hamilton was 3.1 behind . So there was plenty of space!
Exactly this
Last year everyone was on equal tires. So this year the prerequisite with Mercs on different tires makes the whole story moot as strategic options this year were completely different. You had to open a gap as big as possible to account for the soft tire advantage. Vettel was able to open a gap of 7 seconds to Hamilton, LEC wasn't.
If that was the case, their plan was a screw up from the start then. But the point is, people and Vettel saying there was not enough room to switch when its 100% true that they did.
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NathanOlder
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Re: 2019 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, 27 - 29 September

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Mandrake wrote:
30 Sep 2019, 16:39
ferkan wrote:
30 Sep 2019, 14:48
Zarathustra wrote:
30 Sep 2019, 14:44


I guess a lot of you folks Don't Understand The Clue Here.
Vettel didn't receive any Karma yesterday- it was Ferrari who received all the Karma they deserve.

It's just repulsive how Ferrari is handling this situation- I lost a lot of respect for the team yesterday.
Not really. Ferrari is 2nd in standing and thats how its gonna remain. Vettel is -21pts 5 races before end of the season with 9 qualis in a row on losing side.

He HAS to win this battle, because losing it to Leclerc in his first year in Ferrari would be tragedy for him.
They are not racing for the 2nd place. They are all racing for the Championship. It was apparent from early on that the car was not as good as 2018 compared to the Mercs.

It would be a tragedy if LEC won the championship and VET didn't. The point gap now opened up because of his DNF and was only close because of Vettel starting in the back in at least 2 occasions through failure of team and car. And do not forget Spa. LEC is driving very well, but in parts his current points standing is due to Ferrari effing up for one driver.
So the early team orders favoring Vettel, The Bahrain mechanical, The Monaco Team F$$k up, Germany issues in qualy dont count on Charles side of the garage then ? #-o you clearly choose to ignore the problems Charles had that were out of his control but point out Sebs.
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dans79
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Re: 2019 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, 27 - 29 September

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I swear some times, the fia acts just like communist Russia of a bygone era!
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14631 ... -criticism
Steiner did not impress the FIA with a message he sent Magnussen over the radio, which referred to "a stupid idiotic steward".
Masi referenced the various "judicial processes" the FIA has at its disposal should it feel necessary to utilise them, with its International Tribunal reserved for serious alleged offences.
The FIA's International Sporting Code includes a code of good conduct that includes a reference to participants not using words to "cause damage to the standing and/or reputation of... the FIA, its bodies, its members or its management".
It seems the FIA can't handle any discontent so they are going to break out the catch all club. pathetic Imo.
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TAG
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Re: 2019 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, 27 - 29 September

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I like the traditional and very local car recovery solutions but a thought just struck me... you'd think that with the billion dollar budget at F1s disposal, they'd be able to deploy a fast response recovery vehicle that could scoop up most crashes or stop vehicles in a matter of minutes. A small platform crane with large tires to work off road in gravel. A movable (highly maneuverable) platform to place the recovered car on and high speed capability, about 60 mph so two of them could cover most circuits (with shortcuts) in a matter of minutes. Hell, the could even sell them for a profit to other racing series.

You're welcome FiA, that will be 100k dollars consulting fee. PM me for my PayPal details.
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henry
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Re: 2019 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, 27 - 29 September

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dans79 wrote:
30 Sep 2019, 17:10
Just_a_fan wrote:
30 Sep 2019, 16:25
ENGINE TUNER wrote:
30 Sep 2019, 15:33
]
You just don't get it do you? With a reversed grid, it wouldn't just be LEC behind BOT and HAM, BOT and HAM would also be behind slower cars and would be forced to overtake them while defending. IT WOULD NOT BE THE SAME.
Oh, I get it. It's contrived nonsense, that's what it is.
The entire reverse grid concept is moronic, I don't care who came up with it, or who thinks its a good idea.


Lets look at it with Susuka as an example. If we replaced q3 with a reverse grid sprint race the starting line up would be as follows.
  1. Ric
  2. Nor
  3. Alb
  4. Sai
  5. Gas
  6. Vet
  7. Ver
  8. Lec
  9. Bot
  10. Ham
Their is no way in hel* anyone that still has a mathematical shot at the WDC starts the actual race in p1. I'd be shocked if any of the contenders made it above P3.

A lot of naive people are saying the 2021 rules will make it so that it won't be hard to follow other cars and thus overtaking will be easier. However we have heard all this before, like back in 2010/11 when the line was DRS will make overtaking easier. It did for a year or two, but we are right back to where we where before.

The most comical thing to me is that so many people think the 2021 rules will fix everything because the FIA and FOM/Liberty say it will. The simple fact is the teams have hundreds of engineers, and will be actively working to undo/surpass anything the fia or Liberty can come up with. it's a simple numbers game the FIA is out numbed by several orders of magnitude.
Taking the substance of your post. I believe the plan is invert the whole grid. So Kubica and Russell at the front Bottas and Hamilton at the back.

The intention is NOT to have the fastest get to the front in the qualifying race. The objective is to have a two part RACE, a short part on the Saturday a longer part on the Sunday. That’s in contrast to the current form of the sport which is a two part TIME TRIAL.

In an earlier post you asked how many laps someone at the back would have to get the passes done. It would typically be 4 per overtake for the current championship leader. That’s about what Albon did last weekend.

The technical effort being put into the 2021 rules objectives is considerably more than has ever been made before. Have a look at the 2021 aero thread to catch up on this. It’s possible, as you say, that they won’t get things right but I believe Ross Brawn has rather more insight than any of us and will give it a better chance than previous changes.

The time trial nature of the event was amply illustrated by Hamilton at the end of the race in Sochi, he was cruising, chatting to Bono, “do I need to pick up my pace”. Then just to show how much he was cruising he popped in the fastest lap of the race.

We’re lucky at the moment because the fastest car in the short time trial is not quite the fastest in the long form and we get some racing as a by product.

If we can discuss this civilly we might learn something from each other.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

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NathanOlder
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Joined: 02 Mar 2012, 10:05
Location: Kent

Re: 2019 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, 27 - 29 September

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TAG wrote:
30 Sep 2019, 18:16
I like the traditional and very local car recovery solutions but a thought just struck me... you'd think that with the billion dollar budget at F1s disposal, they'd be able to deploy a fast response recovery vehicle that could scoop up most crashes or stop vehicles in a matter of minutes. A small platform crane with large tires to work off road in gravel. A movable (highly maneuverable) platform to place the recovered car on and high speed capability, about 60 mph so two of them could cover most circuits (with shortcuts) in a matter of minutes. Hell, the could even sell them for a profit to other racing series.

You're welcome FiA, that will be 100k dollars consulting fee. PM me for my PayPal details.
Come on man, stop it.

Thats far too much like common sense.
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cplchanb
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Re: 2019 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, 27 - 29 September

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NathanOlder wrote:
30 Sep 2019, 18:21
TAG wrote:
30 Sep 2019, 18:16
I like the traditional and very local car recovery solutions but a thought just struck me... you'd think that with the billion dollar budget at F1s disposal, they'd be able to deploy a fast response recovery vehicle that could scoop up most crashes or stop vehicles in a matter of minutes. A small platform crane with large tires to work off road in gravel. A movable (highly maneuverable) platform to place the recovered car on and high speed capability, about 60 mph so two of them could cover most circuits (with shortcuts) in a matter of minutes. Hell, the could even sell them for a profit to other racing series.

You're welcome FiA, that will be 100k dollars consulting fee. PM me for my PayPal details.
Come on man, stop it.

Thats far too much like common sense.
In a time not so long ago they has something just as effective....Cranes.Then they realised that they would get in the way of the cameras and now they employ city tow trucks to do the job.

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Zarathustra
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Re: 2019 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, 27 - 29 September

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Never mind.
Last edited by Zarathustra on 30 Sep 2019, 18:45, edited 1 time in total.

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dans79
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Location: USA

Re: 2019 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, 27 - 29 September

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henry wrote:
30 Sep 2019, 18:19
The intention is NOT to have the fastest get to the front in the qualifying race. The objective is to have a two part RACE, a short part on the Saturday a longer part on the Sunday. That’s in contrast to the current form of the sport which is a two part TIME TRIAL.
That is not what i read.
https://www.planetf1.com/news/unanimous ... rse-grids/
The new style would see the drivers line up in reverse championship order on the Saturday and compete in a sprint race that would determine the starting grid for the Sunday grand prix.

“The intention is to have two or three races where instead of qualifying we have a reverse-grid sprint race,” Brawn explained.
Unless they are giving out points for the sprint race (not seen this mentioned anywhere), then all they are doing is hosing those at the front of the WDC rankings, for the sake of the "show". That is unacceptable as far as I'm concerned, as it's all just a gimick to appease the ficklest of fans.

Look at all the crying from yesterday over the VSC & SC. Do you think those people are going to act any differently when their driver starts 10th because of the sprint race?
henry wrote:
30 Sep 2019, 18:19
The technical effort being put into the 2021 rules objectives is considerably more than has ever been made before. Have a look at the 2021 aero thread to catch up on this. It’s possible, as you say, that they won’t get things right but I believe Ross Brawn has rather more insight than any of us and will give it a better chance than previous changes.
Even if the FIA get it right, the teams will quickly undo it, because as i mentioned previously the teams have substantially more resources.
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izzy
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Joined: 26 May 2019, 22:28

Re: 2019 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, 27 - 29 September

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ENGINE TUNER wrote:
30 Sep 2019, 15:55
izzy wrote:
30 Sep 2019, 10:35
F1NAC makes a great point, that Charles started it, with not giving Seb his tow in Monza
How could he when the track was blocked? LEC made the line in time to start his 2nd timed lap in q3, VET didn't, none of that was LEC'S fault.
Do you guys want to blame LEC for VET'S spin in monza too?
it was while they were in T1/2, watch at 15-18s, Charles could have gone through and given Seb his tow:

of course then Charles would've been towing everybody else too, but that wasn't the point in that run

So this set up Monza i think

LM10
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Re: 2019 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, 27 - 29 September

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dans79 wrote:
30 Sep 2019, 18:00
I swear some times, the fia acts just like communist Russia of a bygone era!
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14631 ... -criticism
Steiner did not impress the FIA with a message he sent Magnussen over the radio, which referred to "a stupid idiotic steward".
Masi referenced the various "judicial processes" the FIA has at its disposal should it feel necessary to utilise them, with its International Tribunal reserved for serious alleged offences.
The FIA's International Sporting Code includes a code of good conduct that includes a reference to participants not using words to "cause damage to the standing and/or reputation of... the FIA, its bodies, its members or its management".
It seems the FIA can't handle any discontent so they are going to break out the catch all club. pathetic Imo.

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dans79
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Re: 2019 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, 27 - 29 September

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LM10 wrote:
30 Sep 2019, 18:55
dans79 wrote:
30 Sep 2019, 18:00
I swear some times, the fia acts just like communist Russia of a bygone era!
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14631 ... -criticism
Steiner did not impress the FIA with a message he sent Magnussen over the radio, which referred to "a stupid idiotic steward".
Masi referenced the various "judicial processes" the FIA has at its disposal should it feel necessary to utilise them, with its International Tribunal reserved for serious alleged offences.
The FIA's International Sporting Code includes a code of good conduct that includes a reference to participants not using words to "cause damage to the standing and/or reputation of... the FIA, its bodies, its members or its management".
It seems the FIA can't handle any discontent so they are going to break out the catch all club. pathetic Imo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WToR0r-hDPw

The ridiculous part is that they are going to go after Steiner, when Kevin was the one cursing.
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