Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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HPD
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Joined: 30 Jun 2016, 16:06

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Albert Fabrega said there is a rumor that Ferrari is using the refrigerant oil to produce more energy.
The refrigerant oil is not regulated, so it would be legal.
(speculation)

Polite
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Joined: 30 Oct 2018, 10:36

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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HPD wrote:
28 Sep 2019, 12:25
Albert Fabrega said there is a rumor that Ferrari is using the refrigerant oil to produce more energy.
The refrigerant oil is not regulated, so it would be legal.
(speculation)
that was an old rumor from 2018..

Ferrari s Pu deploys more out of corners while harvests more at the and of the straits. Is Sw wise, Ers is the best in class from 2018. And i think the 2019 upgrade is more on the Ice.

zibby43
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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The rate of acceleration on the pit straight was just otherworldly. I wish I had something technical to go along with the observation.

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MtthsMlw
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zibby43 wrote:
28 Sep 2019, 21:38
The rate of acceleration on the pit straight was just otherworldly. I wish I had something technical to go along with the observation.
What I could observe is that in terms of top speed the difference isn't that big. Lec is 4 km/h faster on the pit straight (324 vs 320) and 3 km/h (329 vs 326) on the back straight.
On the back straight Ferraris acceleration advantage gets lesser near top speed.

zibby43
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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MtthsMlw wrote:
28 Sep 2019, 21:54
zibby43 wrote:
28 Sep 2019, 21:38
The rate of acceleration on the pit straight was just otherworldly. I wish I had something technical to go along with the observation.
What I could observe is that in terms of top speed the difference isn't that big. Lec is 4 km/h faster on the pit straight (324 vs 320) and 3 km/h (329 vs 326) on the back straight.
On the back straight Ferraris acceleration advantage gets lesser near top speed.
I think we may be talking about 2 separate things. Rate of acceleration to that top speed vs. the top speed achieved.

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MtthsMlw
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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zibby43 wrote:
28 Sep 2019, 22:53
MtthsMlw wrote:
28 Sep 2019, 21:54
zibby43 wrote:
28 Sep 2019, 21:38
The rate of acceleration on the pit straight was just otherworldly. I wish I had something technical to go along with the observation.
What I could observe is that in terms of top speed the difference isn't that big. Lec is 4 km/h faster on the pit straight (324 vs 320) and 3 km/h (329 vs 326) on the back straight.
On the back straight Ferraris acceleration advantage gets lesser near top speed.
I think we may be talking about 2 separate things. Rate of acceleration to that top speed vs. the top speed achieved.
No, I was also thinking about the rate, the top speed comparison was just a bonus :D
Ferrari gains under acceleration basically after the car isn't traction limited anymore but near top speed that gaining gets less and less.
Ofc the rate of acceleration gets less anyways the faster you go but Ferraris gains aren't linear, they plateau near the end in comparison to Merc.
Idk if that makes sense..

zibby43
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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MtthsMlw wrote:
28 Sep 2019, 23:09
zibby43 wrote:
28 Sep 2019, 22:53
MtthsMlw wrote:
28 Sep 2019, 21:54


What I could observe is that in terms of top speed the difference isn't that big. Lec is 4 km/h faster on the pit straight (324 vs 320) and 3 km/h (329 vs 326) on the back straight.
On the back straight Ferraris acceleration advantage gets lesser near top speed.
I think we may be talking about 2 separate things. Rate of acceleration to that top speed vs. the top speed achieved.
No, I was also thinking about the rate, the top speed comparison was just a bonus :D
Ferrari gains under acceleration basically after the car isn't traction limited anymore but near top speed that gaining gets less and less.
Ofc the rate of acceleration gets less anyways the faster you go but Ferraris gains aren't linear, they plateau near the end in comparison to Merc.
Idk if that makes sense..
Yep! I'm following you now. And I think you make a great observation!

Alexf1
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Is there any data available on accelerations per team and/or engine?

gruntguru
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Joined: 21 Feb 2009, 07:43

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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MtthsMlw wrote:
28 Sep 2019, 23:09
Ferrari gains under acceleration basically after the car isn't traction limited anymore but near top speed that gaining gets less and less.
Ofc the rate of acceleration gets less anyways the faster you go but Ferraris gains aren't linear, they plateau near the end in comparison to Merc.
Idk if that makes sense..
Once you establish a power advantage over your opponents it is often most useful to run more aero. That would account for a minimal top speed advantage, minimal high speed acceleration advantage, greater low speed acceleration advantage and potentially a lower traction limited threshold speed.
je suis charlie

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Juzh
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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From the video below we can see ferrari gains time more or less over the course of entire straights, even on very short ones. Only explanation of course is they have more power, and probably not only an insignificant amount. Most likely from ICE.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EE2VmGLqYCE&t=4s


another thing i've noticed is that ferrari tends to harvest a lot of energy at the end, particularly russian main straight was very obvious. They're dropping ~5kmh before braking zones (325 down to 320), compared to mercedes 0 kmh (320) and red bull 1 or 2 kmh (320 down to 318 just before braking). Interesting. Possible reason would be their ICE is so much better they can afford to do some harvesting in such places, since they're arriving at faster speeds anyway, and then use that energy in better places. Double whammy.

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henry
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Juzh wrote:
30 Sep 2019, 09:19

another thing i've noticed is that ferrari tends to harvest a lot of energy at the end, particularly russian main straight was very obvious. They're dropping ~5kmh before braking zones (325 down to 320), compared to mercedes 0 kmh (320) and red bull 1 or 2 kmh (320 down to 318 just before braking). Interesting. Possible reason would be their ICE is so much better they can afford to do some harvesting in such places, since they're arriving at faster speeds anyway, and then use that energy in better places. Double whammy.
I agree. I first noticed this at Hochenheim last year, when AMUS published some end of straight data about Ferrari and Mercedes. I made a model and the only way I could make it fit the data for Ferrari was to have them switch to charging the ES simultaneously from MGU-K and MGU-H at the very end of the straight.This means a charge rate of around 180 or even 190kW. That’s similar to the discharge rate in electric supercharge mode. My understanding is that high charge rates are harder to manage than high discharge. Maybe this is what Ferrari get from their unusual battery configuration?

For completeness I found Mercedes switching off the MGU-K drive earlier than Ferrari and charging the ES with the MGU-K for longer, and obviously at a much lower rate.

I also note that WilliamsF1 have recently announced a battery package with two different chemistries which they claim can handle higher charge rates than a single chemistry. It’s a 200MJ unit and the claimed rates are 550KW for 20 seconds discharge 550kW for 10 seconds charge. They are lower relative rates than F1 where I think the ES is around 20MJ.

If Ferrari were using a two part battery they would probably need to have a battery management system that moved charge between the two parts. It could be that they would use the power management components in the control Electronics to do that. This would mean power flowing across the FIA monitoring sensor but not going to the MGU-K but instead returning to the ES. This would certainly look anomalous to the FIA and might prompt an investigation. There was one and the FIA were happy.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

gruntguru
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Joined: 21 Feb 2009, 07:43

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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One possibility is the use of ultra-capacitors eg if one half of Ferrari's "battery" pack was actually a capacitor bank the charge/discharge rates of that section could easily be much higher than the maximum combined H + K input or output. Meanwhile energy flow into and out of the chemical battery section could be maintained at optimum rates.
je suis charlie

ENGINE TUNER
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Joined: 29 Nov 2016, 18:07

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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gruntguru wrote:
01 Oct 2019, 00:11
One possibility is the use of ultra-capacitors eg if one half of Ferrari's "battery" pack was actually a capacitor bank the charge/discharge rates of that section could easily be much higher than the maximum combined H + K input or output. Meanwhile energy flow into and out of the chemical battery section could be maintained at optimum rates.
Capacitors, or as Henry mentioned the 2 different types of batteries, cell vs pouch that was used in the Williams FE battery.

djones
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Stupid question.... why do teams not use capacitors anyway? (instead of batteries)

ENGINE TUNER
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Joined: 29 Nov 2016, 18:07

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djones wrote:
01 Oct 2019, 14:29
Stupid question.... why do teams not use capacitors anyway? (instead of batteries)
Not enough energy capacity? Too much Volume?

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