Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
hugobos
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by hugobos » Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:54 pm

An idea, I work in a powerplant, we use oil cooled transformers. We have in the oil circuit an hydran analyzer, to monitor the oil. When the transformer gets a hot spot one of the indicators is hydrogen production. I wonder if you fill your radiator and cooling circuit of an f1 engine could you produce hydrogen from the oil with that heat. Hydrogen is then vented and fed into the engine airinlet. Hydrogen produces no smoke ...and a lot of power...
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hugobos
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by hugobos » Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:06 pm

It is not only hydrogen other good stuff as well:
Key gases formed by degradation of oil are hydrogen (H2), methane (CH4), ethane (C2H6), ethylene (C2H4), acetylene (C2H2), carbon monoxide (CO), and oxygen (O2). Except for carbon monoxide and oxygen, all these gases are formed from the degradation of the oil itself.
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saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by saviour stivala » Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:23 pm

hugobos wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:54 pm
An idea, I work in a powerplant, we use oil cooled transformers. We have in the oil circuit an hydran analyzer, to monitor the oil. When the transformer gets a hot spot one of the indicators is hydrogen production. I wonder if you fill your radiator and cooling circuit of an f1 engine could you produce hydrogen from the oil with that heat. Hydrogen is then vented and fed into the engine airinlet. Hydrogen produces no smoke ...and a lot of power...
According to engine air intake 5.14, 5.14.1, 5.14.2 (engine air intake) nothing is permitted other than air and fuel to enter engine as a means to combust.

dans79
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by dans79 » Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:01 pm

NL_Fer wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:42 pm
Could it be hidden so FIA will never find out?
that depends if someone is just asking questions, or if someone lodges an official protest and what evidence if any they have.

If memory serves, the FIA can technically disassemble your car just because they want to.

f1rules
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by f1rules » Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:06 pm

if i remember correctly it has to do with a rather large turbo i think Horner and them told last year, they knew it would be one of their best tracks because they would have a equal pu compared to the others, as renault lost less performance, thats also why some speculate that it could be a good gp for mclaren this year
EDIT
They dont mention why the renault works well but here is a interview where they state their deficit is gone
https://www.planetf1.com/news/horner-cr ... exico-win/

MtthsMlw wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 1:22 pm
f1rules wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 1:07 pm
Question: with the demands of the mexico circuit and the thin air limitations, will that maybe help others gain insight to ferraris advantage, i mean If its not ice/combustion related, but of electrical and harvesting nature their advantage could potentially grow in mexico??
if so im sure theyll hide though, because right now the others dont have a clue and are shooting in the dark
Mexico doesn't appear to be that power sensitive, last year we had a RB 1-2 in quali using the Renault PU.

atanatizante
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by atanatizante » Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:58 pm

hugobos wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:54 pm
An idea, I work in a powerplant, we use oil cooled transformers. We have in the oil circuit an hydran analyzer, to monitor the oil. When the transformer gets a hot spot one of the indicators is hydrogen production. I wonder if you fill your radiator and cooling circuit of an f1 engine could you produce hydrogen from the oil with that heat. Hydrogen is then vented and fed into the engine airinlet. Hydrogen produces no smoke ...and a lot of power...
I don`t think it`s possible due to coolant - oil - goes by an internal circuit through rads and they have to be sure it doesn`t leak over just not putting into jeopardy their ICE ...

But it`s an interesting idea to use H2 - hydrogen molecules - in order to boost power!

This gas is very easy to obtained when you electrolyze the water: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolysis_of_water And the chemical reaction is very fast when you are using a 1000 Amps DC current coming out of the ES for a couple of seconds. In addition to H2, there`s a secondary product which is obtained: oxygen - O2. The amount of H2 generated is almost twice the amount of O2, and both are proportional to the total electrical charge conducted by the solution ...

So they could place a small 1-litre salted water electrolyzer (such as an Hofmann voltameter) near the ICE, which has 2 "breathers" one for each gas ... The downside is the amount of water they could carry on: water electrolysis is an exergonic reaction which leads to waste heat hence water evaporation... Then another issue is that H2 is highly volatile and dangerous ...

On the same note, one interesting idea is to produce H2 via HTE - High-temperature electrolysis. The efficiency of HTE is best appreciated by assuming that the electricity used comes from a waste heat engine, and then considering the amount of heat energy necessary to produce 1 kg H2 - hydrogen - (141.86 megajoules), both in the HTE process itself and also in producing the electricity used. At 100 °C, 350 megajoules of thermal energy is required (41% efficient). At 850 °C, 225 megajoules are required (64% efficient).

This method could also generate electricity but I don`t think it`s enough and secondly is allowed to do that ...
"I don`t have all the answers. Try Google!"
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Xwang
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Xwang » Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:18 pm

atanatizante wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:58 pm
hugobos wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:54 pm
An idea, I work in a powerplant, we use oil cooled transformers. We have in the oil circuit an hydran analyzer, to monitor the oil. When the transformer gets a hot spot one of the indicators is hydrogen production. I wonder if you fill your radiator and cooling circuit of an f1 engine could you produce hydrogen from the oil with that heat. Hydrogen is then vented and fed into the engine airinlet. Hydrogen produces no smoke ...and a lot of power...
I don`t think it`s possible due to coolant - oil - goes by an internal circuit through rads and they have to be sure it doesn`t leak over just not putting into jeopardy their ICE ...

But it`s an interesting idea to use H2 - hydrogen molecules - in order to boost power!

This gas is very easy to obtained when you electrolyze the water: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolysis_of_water And the chemical reaction is very fast when you are using a 1000 Amps DC current coming out of the ES for a couple of seconds. In addition to H2, there`s a secondary product which is obtained: oxygen - O2. The amount of H2 generated is almost twice the amount of O2, and both are proportional to the total electrical charge conducted by the solution ...

So they could place a small 1-litre salted water electrolyzer (such as an Hofmann voltameter) near the ICE, which has 2 "breathers" one for each gas ... The downside is the amount of water they could carry on: water electrolysis is an exergonic reaction which leads to waste heat hence water evaporation... Then another issue is that H2 is highly volatile and dangerous ...

On the same note, one interesting idea is to produce H2 via HTE - High-temperature electrolysis. The efficiency of HTE is best appreciated by assuming that the electricity used comes from a waste heat engine, and then considering the amount of heat energy necessary to produce 1 kg H2 - hydrogen - (141.86 megajoules), both in the HTE process itself and also in producing the electricity used. At 100 °C, 350 megajoules of thermal energy is required (41% efficient). At 850 °C, 225 megajoules are required (64% efficient).

This method could also generate electricity but I don`t think it`s enough and secondly is allowed to do that ...
I write it again:

It is not permitted, see below

5.14 Engine intake air :
5.14.1
With the exception of incidental leakage through joints or cooling ducts in the inlet system
(either into or out of the system), all air entering the engine must enter the bodywork through
a maximum of two inlets which are located:
a) Between the front of the cockpit entry template and a point 500mm forward of the rear
wheel centre line longitudinally.
b) No less than 200mm above the reference plane vertically.
c) On vertical cross‐sections parallel to C‐C.
Furthermore, any such inlets must be visible in their entirety when viewed from the front of
the car without the driver seated in the car and with the secondary roll structure and
associated fairing removed (see Article 15.2.6).
5.14.2
The addition of any substance other than fuel, as described in Article 5.10.3, into the air
destined for combustion is forbidden. Exhaust gas recirculation is forbidden.

Sierra117
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Sierra117 » Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:19 pm

atanatizante wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:58 pm
hugobos wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:54 pm
An idea, I work in a powerplant, we use oil cooled transformers. We have in the oil circuit an hydran analyzer, to monitor the oil. When the transformer gets a hot spot one of the indicators is hydrogen production. I wonder if you fill your radiator and cooling circuit of an f1 engine could you produce hydrogen from the oil with that heat. Hydrogen is then vented and fed into the engine airinlet. Hydrogen produces no smoke ...and a lot of power...
I don`t think it`s possible due to coolant - oil - goes by an internal circuit through rads and they have to be sure it doesn`t leak over just not putting into jeopardy their ICE ...

But it`s an interesting idea to use H2 - hydrogen molecules - in order to boost power!

This gas is very easy to obtained when you electrolyze the water: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolysis_of_water And the chemical reaction is very fast when you are using a 1000 Amps DC current coming out of the ES for a couple of seconds. In addition to H2, there`s a secondary product which is obtained: oxygen - O2. The amount of H2 generated is almost twice the amount of O2, and both are proportional to the total electrical charge conducted by the solution ...

So they could place a small 1-litre salted water electrolyzer (such as an Hofmann voltameter) near the ICE, which has 2 "breathers" one for each gas ... The downside is the amount of water they could carry on: water electrolysis is an exergonic reaction which leads to waste heat hence water evaporation... Then another issue is that H2 is highly volatile and dangerous ...

On the same note, one interesting idea is to produce H2 via HTE - High-temperature electrolysis. The efficiency of HTE is best appreciated by assuming that the electricity used comes from a waste heat engine, and then considering the amount of heat energy necessary to produce 1 kg H2 - hydrogen - (141.86 megajoules), both in the HTE process itself and also in producing the electricity used. At 100 °C, 350 megajoules of thermal energy is required (41% efficient). At 850 °C, 225 megajoules are required (64% efficient).

This method could also generate electricity but I don`t think it`s enough and secondly is allowed to do that ...
It could be something "simpler". It's been mentioned how important fuel development has been, so perhaps they have a mix such that they produce lots of oxygen byproducts to add to the combustion chamber and they vent out whatever is not allowed by the rules. That plus bigger better turbo and you have loads of O2 for lots of party modes. Even more tin foil approach: the fuel only produces the extras at higher temperatures (due to running engine harder s quali) thus explaining their big advantage 🤔👽
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atanatizante
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by atanatizante » Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:26 pm

henry wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:20 am
Perhaps Ferrari have improved their turbine. That would increase the MGU-H output which means that the ES would suffer less load in self sustain plus mode, and they would have more power in self sustain. It might also mean that the turbine supplies more aid to the MGU-H in e-boost again reducing the drain from the ES.

This would mean that they could, on a typical straight, run e-boost longer followed by self sustain plus longer, followed by a higher power self sustain for the rest of the straight.

This would mean similar increased acceleration from say 230kph compared with a car with inferior turbine output.

It may not be one thing but that’s one that would make a difference.
Sorry for being a non-English native speaker, but if I understand correctly you said that there are at least 3 distinctive phases when the car runs on the straight: the first one is down purely on electrical boost via MGU-K in order to help to break the inertial car`s momentum, then the car goes to ICE boost and at the 3rd stage is an MGU-K + ICE phase?
Hence that`s the reason why it seems that Ferrari is accelerating further when reaches a speed over ~ 230km/h and Merc`s acceleration is plateaued? It seems to me that from that speed Merc`s car is running out of juice aka e-boost, don`t you think so?

So the reason they are out of juice or e-boost is the time management of different types of powers available to them or just that they have more deployment time due to their better MGU-H than the rest, giving them more free electrical energy to the MGU-K which is free by the rules?

And another primordial question: Ferrari has such an MGU-H advantage that could run it at 100% over the entire lap (at least in the Q3 and overtaking & defending situations) something that other manufacturers can`t do that, yet?
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hugobos
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by hugobos » Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:42 pm

Thanks for the response , I read the rules, and maybe incidenteal leakage could be after a long straight.... that’s also incidental. Once more thanks for the reply’s.
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wuzak
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by wuzak » Fri Oct 18, 2019 2:19 am

Regarding oil leakage, there are rules in place regarding oil consumption.

NL_Fer
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by NL_Fer » Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:01 am

Come on Guys, O2 is not the problem. They can add as much as they need by increasing Turbo pressure.

It is the fuel which is limited, at 100kg/hr.

Slo Poke
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Slo Poke » Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:26 am

Merc no longer give a stuff. Wcc is done and dusted so that only leaves keeping Bottas in line for second place in wdc. Meanwhile Ferrari have merely perfected their party mode! Very effective don’t you think?

Oil burning banned, new fuel takes it place. Slight gain in power plus rear rubber preservation; so methinks big bang’s a red-herring.

Oh! Just one more thing. Red Bull may just snag a miracle.

selvam_e2002
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by selvam_e2002 » Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:31 am

As Ferrari has more power in straight line and one lap power, why it is not available for other customer teams like, Alfo, HASS? Why there are struggling?

I may silly to ask these question sorry.

1. Why customer team not getting the same benefit from Ferrari? Is there a rule or policy that restrict customer team not to use the same component with same tuning as ferrari?

2. If customer team also has same engine component then the speed of ferrari come from Chase?

saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by saviour stivala » Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:58 am

selvam_e2002 wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:31 am
As Ferrari has more power in straight line and one lap power, why it is not available for other customer teams like, Alfo, HASS? Why there are struggling?

I may silly to ask these question sorry.

1. Why customer team not getting the same benefit from Ferrari? Is there a rule or policy that restrict customer team not to use the same component with same tuning as ferrari?

2. If customer team also has same engine component then the speed of ferrari come from Chase?
Same questions can be asked of Mercedes and Honda supplies to others.