Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
MtthsMlw
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by MtthsMlw » Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:31 am

selvam_e2002 wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:31 am
As Ferrari has more power in straight line and one lap power, why it is not available for other customer teams like, Alfo, HASS? Why there are struggling?

I may silly to ask these question sorry.

1. Why customer team not getting the same benefit from Ferrari? Is there a rule or policy that restrict customer team not to use the same component with same tuning as ferrari?

2. If customer team also has same engine component then the speed of ferrari come from Chase?
Ferrari has to provide the same PU and settings to their costumers. The only thing that was reported to be different is fuel. Alfa and Haas could use the same but 'choose' not to.

Williams also got a great engine but...One must not forget that the SF90 is probably the least draggy car on the grid.
With less drag comes lower fuel consumption which might allow Ferrari to use higher modes for longer in the race, cooling is also different with Ferrari most likely having the most sophisticated setup.

maxxer
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by maxxer » Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:58 am

saviour stivala wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:58 am
selvam_e2002 wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:31 am
As Ferrari has more power in straight line and one lap power, why it is not available for other customer teams like, Alfo, HASS? Why there are struggling?

I may silly to ask these question sorry.

1. Why customer team not getting the same benefit from Ferrari? Is there a rule or policy that restrict customer team not to use the same component with same tuning as ferrari?

2. If customer team also has same engine component then the speed of ferrari come from Chase?
Same questions can be asked of Mercedes and Honda supplies to others.
Yeah why is Williams never on row 2 !

saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by saviour stivala » Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:07 am

MtthsMlw wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:31 am
selvam_e2002 wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:31 am
As Ferrari has more power in straight line and one lap power, why it is not available for other customer teams like, Alfo, HASS? Why there are struggling?

I may silly to ask these question sorry.

1. Why customer team not getting the same benefit from Ferrari? Is there a rule or policy that restrict customer team not to use the same component with same tuning as ferrari?

2. If customer team also has same engine component then the speed of ferrari come from Chase?
Ferrari has to provide the same PU and settings to their costumers. The only thing that was reported to be different is fuel. Alfa and Haas could use the same but 'choose' not to.

Williams also got a great engine but...One must not forget that the SF90 is probably the least draggy car on the grid.
With less drag comes lower fuel consumption which might allow Ferrari to use higher modes for longer in the race, cooling is also different with Ferrari most likely having the most sophisticated setup.
Is Alfa and Haas choosing not to run the same specification power unit as FERRARI permitted? Does the rules permit the use of two different specification of one make of power unit?. This is not the case of reverting to a power unit that has been in the pool/has been used before.

richardn
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by richardn » Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:10 am

MtthsMlw wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:31 am
One must not forget that the SF90 is probably the least draggy car on the grid.
With less drag comes lower fuel consumption which might allow Ferrari to use higher modes for longer in the race, cooling is also different with Ferrari most likely having the most sophisticated setup.
Less drag = less fuel is true if both cars are travelling at the same speed. With less drag comes less downforce so they have to go faster down the straight to compensate for the fact they are going slower round the corners. Since the process of capturing kinetic energy and releasing it is not 100% efficient it is likely the car with more downforce uses less fuel around a lap.

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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Sierra117 » Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:27 am

Also going faster down the straights means you're braking harder and that means you're recovering a lot more per braking zone compared to someone else who sacrificed that top speed for more df and seed round corners. Lots of give and take going on. Perhaps it's overall better to build a car faster on the straights to aid your energy recovery?
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henry
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by henry » Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:50 am

atanatizante wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:26 pm

Sorry for being a non-English native speaker, but if I understand correctly you said that there are at least 3 distinctive phases when the car runs on the straight: the first one is down purely on electrical boost via MGU-K in order to help to break the inertial car`s momentum, then the car goes to ICE boost and at the 3rd stage is an MGU-K + ICE phase?
Hence that`s the reason why it seems that Ferrari is accelerating further when reaches a speed over ~ 230km/h and Merc`s acceleration is plateaued? It seems to me that from that speed Merc`s car is running out of juice aka e-boost, don`t you think so?

So the reason they are out of juice or e-boost is the time management of different types of powers available to them or just that they have more deployment time due to their better MGU-H than the rest, giving them more free electrical energy to the MGU-K which is free by the rules?

And another primordial question: Ferrari has such an MGU-H advantage that could run it at 100% over the entire lap (at least in the Q3 and overtaking & defending situations) something that other manufacturers can`t do that, yet?
Thank you for being patient with my English explanations, it’s my native language I should do better.

Let me try again.

Once the car is not traction limited they want to accelerate with the maximum possible power. This is e-boost, it drains the ES very quickly, around 200kW, but gives the highest possible PU power.

They then close the wastegates and run with the ICE + full MGU-K. The MGU-K receives energy from the MGU-H and the ES. The ES energy drain is much lower, 60kW, and the PU power only a little lower. I call this self-Sustain plus.

If the straight is long enough they switch to ICE + partial MGU-K. The ES contributes zero energy and the PU power is lower again, ICE power plus MGU-H power. This is usually referred to as self-sustain and they can run this until the fuel runs out.

Your conclusions are correct. If they have more power from the MGU-H they can run each of e-boost and self-sustain plus for longer and they can also run self sustain at a higher power.

To answer your other question. If in qualification Ferrari only ran max-power, e-boost, and not self sustain plus, they would only be able to run it for about 30 seconds. That might be enough for Monaco, but everywhere else they would be running the second half of straights in self-sustain which is probably 90 to 100kW lower. The speed traces don’t suggest that’s how they do it.
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by richardn » Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:26 pm

Sierra117 wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:27 am
Also going faster down the straights means you're braking harder and that means you're recovering a lot more per braking zone compared to someone else who sacrificed that top speed for more df and seed round corners. Lots of give and take going on. Perhaps it's overall better to build a car faster on the straights to aid your energy recovery?
Not really. You can't recapture 100% of the kinetic energy you scrub off, so overall there is a net energy loss by braking. So :-

Higher top speed -> lower corner speed -> higher top speed

will use more energy than :-

Lower top speed -> higher corner speed -> Lower top speed

assuming the overall time is the same and lift/drag ratios the same.

sosic2121
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by sosic2121 » Fri Oct 18, 2019 2:52 pm

Maybe Ferrari engine is more optimised for open wastegates and gain more from e-boost or can sustain e-boost for longer.

Sierra117
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Sierra117 » Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:32 pm

richardn wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:26 pm
Sierra117 wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:27 am
Also going faster down the straights means you're braking harder and that means you're recovering a lot more per braking zone compared to someone else who sacrificed that top speed for more df and seed round corners. Lots of give and take going on. Perhaps it's overall better to build a car faster on the straights to aid your energy recovery?
Not really. You can't recapture 100% of the kinetic energy you scrub off, so overall there is a net energy loss by braking. So :-

Higher top speed -> lower corner speed -> higher top speed

will use more energy than :-

Lower top speed -> higher corner speed -> Lower top speed

assuming the overall time is the same and lift/drag ratios the same.
I mean in the case of Ferrari having a stronger ICE. That gives them an advantage even with the losses involved in recovering energy.

In fact, even in an article from way back in 2016, Remi Taffin of Renault mentioned how most of the gains are to be found in the combustion engine so ferrari probably made great leaps there.
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atanatizante
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by atanatizante » Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:36 pm

henry wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:50 am
atanatizante wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:26 pm

Sorry for being a non-English native speaker, but if I understand correctly you said that there are at least 3 distinctive phases when the car runs on the straight: the first one is down purely on electrical boost via MGU-K in order to help to break the inertial car`s momentum, then the car goes to ICE boost and at the 3rd stage is an MGU-K + ICE phase?
Hence that`s the reason why it seems that Ferrari is accelerating further when reaches a speed over ~ 230km/h and Merc`s acceleration is plateaued? It seems to me that from that speed Merc`s car is running out of juice aka e-boost, don`t you think so?

So the reason they are out of juice or e-boost is the time management of different types of powers available to them or just that they have more deployment time due to their better MGU-H than the rest, giving them more free electrical energy to the MGU-K which is free by the rules?

And another primordial question: Ferrari has such an MGU-H advantage that could run it at 100% over the entire lap (at least in the Q3 and overtaking & defending situations) something that other manufacturers can`t do that, yet?
Thank you for being patient with my English explanations, it’s my native language I should do better.

Let me try again.

Once the car is not traction limited they want to accelerate with the maximum possible power. This is e-boost, it drains the ES very quickly, around 200kW, but gives the highest possible PU power.

They then close the wastegates and run with the ICE + full MGU-K. The MGU-K receives energy from the MGU-H and the ES. The ES energy drain is much lower, 60kW, and the PU power only a little lower. I call this self-Sustain plus.

If the straight is long enough they switch to ICE + partial MGU-K. The ES contributes zero energy and the PU power is lower again, ICE power plus MGU-H power. This is usually referred to as self-sustain and they can run this until the fuel runs out.

Your conclusions are correct. If they have more power from the MGU-H they can run each of e-boost and self-sustain plus for longer and they can also run self sustain at a higher power.

To answer your other question. If in qualification Ferrari only ran max-power, e-boost, and not self sustain plus, they would only be able to run it for about 30 seconds. That might be enough for Monaco, but everywhere else they would be running the second half of straights in self-sustain which is probably 90 to 100kW lower. The speed traces don’t suggest that’s how they do it.
No, I think I must thank you instead, for indulging and wasting your time with thorough explanations for me :) ...

But being an analytical person, I must say there are some things that I still don`t understand. Such as:

1. You said: “Once the car is not traction limited, they want to accelerate with the maximum possible power”. Which case or configuration gives them to the max. possible power? full ICE + full MGU-K, isn`t it?

2. Then you said further: “This is e-boost, it drains the ES very quickly, around 200kW, but gives the highest possible PU power.” How come? By the rules MGU-K deploys max. 120kW … or maybe it can deploy 120kW only from ES and whatever kW comes out from MGU-H is adding to that 120kW limit imposed by the rules … so in case of 200kW (per second, I think you mean) as you mentioned, 120kW comes from ES and another 80kW from MGU-H?

3. “They then close the wastegates and run with the ICE + full MGU-K. The MGU-K receives energy from the MGU-H and the ES. The ES energy drain is much lower, 60kW, and the PU power only a little lower. I call this self-Sustain plus.”. If I`m not wrong and my above max. 120kW MGU-K deployment statement is correct, then MGU-H could give them only 60kW/sec …

4. “If in qualification Ferrari only ran max-power, e-boost, and not self-sustain plus, they would only be able to run it for about 30 seconds” … 33.3 sec/lap precisely, thus in self-sustain mode just for 66.6 sec/lap had the MGU-H deploys 60kW/sec. … What if it can deploy 120kW/sec? Then they could run it all over the entire lap! At least in qualy when they don`t need to save fuel ...

5. “That might be enough for Monaco, but everywhere else they would be running the second half of straights in self-sustain which is probably 90 to 100kW lower …” So just ICE + MGU-K at 20-30kW/sec?

6. “The speed traces don’t suggest that’s how they do it.” Can you speculate further? What're your thoughts?

7. In which case they have the biggest acceleration phase? In self-sustain plus mode, full ICE + full MGU-K mode or just only on full MGU-K mode?

I thank you in advance for your answers!
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Dr. Acula
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Dr. Acula » Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:32 pm

Sierra117 wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:27 am
Also going faster down the straights means you're braking harder and that means you're recovering a lot more per braking zone compared to someone else who sacrificed that top speed for more df and seed round corners. Lots of give and take going on. Perhaps it's overall better to build a car faster on the straights to aid your energy recovery?
Problem is though, kinetic energy recuperation is also capped at 120kW. Also the speed differences at the braking point is to minescuel to really make a difference. If you go 10 khp faster or slower hardly doesn't matter with the overall braking performance a F1 car has, you still brake at about the same point and standing at the brake pedal for about the same time.
Last edited by Dr. Acula on Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

ispano6
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by ispano6 » Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:21 am

It seemed to me that Ferrari, and perhaps McLaren, are able to "top off" their cars with a little more juice during qualifying but aren’t able to recover that same performance amount during a race.
Same for the beginning of the race.

Are all teams topping off their batteries while waiting in the pit garage? Are they allowed to top off batteries that are normally recharged by the MGU-H?

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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by restless » Sat Oct 19, 2019 5:22 am

richardn wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:26 pm
Not really. You can't recapture 100% of the kinetic energy you scrub off, so overall there is a net energy loss by braking. So :-

Higher top speed -> lower corner speed -> higher top speed

will use more energy than :-

Lower top speed -> higher corner speed -> Lower top speed

assuming the overall time is the same and lift/drag ratios the same.
More Drag -> more energy/power needed to reach top speed and vice versa

NL_Fer
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by NL_Fer » Sat Oct 19, 2019 7:31 am

ispano6 wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:21 am
It seemed to me that Ferrari, and perhaps McLaren, are able to "top off" their cars with a little more juice during qualifying but aren’t able to recover that same performance amount during a race.
Same for the beginning of the race.

Are all teams topping off their batteries while waiting in the pit garage? Are they allowed to top off batteries that are normally recharged by the MGU-H?
Normale they charge the ES during their outlap of qualifying.

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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by NL_Fer » Sat Oct 19, 2019 8:10 am

restless wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 5:22 am
richardn wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:26 pm
Not really. You can't recapture 100% of the kinetic energy you scrub off, so overall there is a net energy loss by braking. So :-

Higher top speed -> lower corner speed -> higher top speed

will use more energy than :-

Lower top speed -> higher corner speed -> Lower top speed

assuming the overall time is the same and lift/drag ratios the same.
More Drag -> more energy/power needed to reach top speed and vice versa
More downforce, more partial throttle in the corners.

More drag, longer time at full throttle on the straights.

Both result in higher consumption.