Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
ispano6
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by ispano6 » Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:44 am

NL_Fer wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 7:31 am
ispano6 wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:21 am
It seemed to me that Ferrari, and perhaps McLaren, are able to "top off" their cars with a little more juice during qualifying but aren’t able to recover that same performance amount during a race.
Same for the beginning of the race.

Are all teams topping off their batteries while waiting in the pit garage? Are they allowed to top off batteries that are normally recharged by the MGU-H?
Normale they charge the ES during their outlap of qualifying.
Curious, I recall footage where Norris was in the garage and it seemed that there was a reading that indicated how much was stored in the ES, and when the camera closed up on his steering wheel he made an effort to cover the screen on his wheel. I could be wrong but he definitely was instructed to cover it.

It made me wonder what shenanigans could be going on in the garage during qualifying and that not all ES performance may be coming from outlap generation.

NL_Fer
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by NL_Fer » Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:27 pm

Top up is only 4 MJ. Should be no problem to charge during in - out lap.

Mattchu
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Mattchu » Sat Oct 19, 2019 5:07 pm

ispano6 wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:21 am
Are all teams topping off their batteries while waiting in the pit garage? Are they allowed to top off batteries that are normally recharged by the MGU-H?
Appendix 3 Power Unit Energy Flow diagram (Art 1.27) states "The amount of stored energy in any ES may not be increased whilst the car is stationary in the pit lane or garage during the the qualifying Session or during a race pit stop"

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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by MtthsMlw » Sat Oct 19, 2019 7:04 pm

atanatizante wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:36 pm
No, I think I must thank you instead, for indulging and wasting your time with thorough explanations for me :) ...

But being an analytical person, I must say there are some things that I still don`t understand. Such as:

1. You said: “Once the car is not traction limited, they want to accelerate with the maximum possible power”. Which case or configuration gives them to the max. possible power? full ICE + full MGU-K, isn`t it?

2. Then you said further: “This is e-boost, it drains the ES very quickly, around 200kW, but gives the highest possible PU power.” How come? By the rules MGU-K deploys max. 120kW … or maybe it can deploy 120kW only from ES and whatever kW comes out from MGU-H is adding to that 120kW limit imposed by the rules … so in case of 200kW (per second, I think you mean) as you mentioned, 120kW comes from ES and another 80kW from MGU-H?

3. “They then close the wastegates and run with the ICE + full MGU-K. The MGU-K receives energy from the MGU-H and the ES. The ES energy drain is much lower, 60kW, and the PU power only a little lower. I call this self-Sustain plus.”. If I`m not wrong and my above max. 120kW MGU-K deployment statement is correct, then MGU-H could give them only 60kW/sec …

4. “If in qualification Ferrari only ran max-power, e-boost, and not self-sustain plus, they would only be able to run it for about 30 seconds” … 33.3 sec/lap precisely, thus in self-sustain mode just for 66.6 sec/lap had the MGU-H deploys 60kW/sec. … What if it can deploy 120kW/sec? Then they could run it all over the entire lap! At least in qualy when they don`t need to save fuel ...

5. “That might be enough for Monaco, but everywhere else they would be running the second half of straights in self-sustain which is probably 90 to 100kW lower …” So just ICE + MGU-K at 20-30kW/sec?

6. “The speed traces don’t suggest that’s how they do it.” Can you speculate further? What're your thoughts?

7. In which case they have the biggest acceleration phase? In self-sustain plus mode, full ICE + full MGU-K mode or just only on full MGU-K mode?

I thank you in advance for your answers!
I can try to answer some of your questions..

Question 1&2:


E-boost, ICE at full power since the wastegates are open (less backpressure) + MGUK at 120kw from the ES.
MGUH is driving the TC and is using around 80kw to do that.

Question 3
MGUK is getting its max of 120kw splitted between ES and MGUH e.g. 60kw from each.
ES drains at 60kw and ICE power is down a bit since the MGUH is harvesting from the TC.

Question 4
As far as I know the MGUH can only use around 80kw and harvest a little less than that (it's not 100% efficient).
It's limited to 125000rpm, it doesn't need more energy since it's only driving the TC.

Question 5
Yes, MGUK is getting its juice from the H. ICE power is down since the H is harvesting again, adding backpressure.
ES is keeping its SOC.

Question 6
As far as I know, recent speed traces show that Ferrari is gaining at any given point on the straight.
This power advantage can only come from the ICE. How? One may ask Ferrari or the FIA. There might be some clever trick or they're simply doing anything that gives you power better than other teams.
Also the SF90 has very low drag, compared to the rest.

Question 7
Depends from track to track and straight to straight I'd say.

Any kw numbers for the H are estimations, afaik no manufacturer has provided some reliable numbers.

PlatinumZealot
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by PlatinumZealot » Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:21 pm

atanatizante wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:32 pm
Regarding the air necessary for combustion, it`s a known fact that a turbo’s basic requirement is to make the engine’s combustion process more efficient by compressing the air before it enters the combustion chamber, which boosts the amount of oxygen being pushed through and means more of the fuel experiences complete combustion.
In other words, the more oxygen you got the better combustion is, isn`t it?

So, I have a little theory about Ferrari`s trick: how about a liquid oxygen small container which sprays certain amounts into the ICE air intake when you need the most? They could say it`s for reliability reasons like Renault did back in 2011 with that cold blowing … or maybe they have the best compressor on the grid which is running at the max. only on those particular moments …

My two cents :)
Nitrous oxide aka NOS aka NAWZ! Is much smaller volume and easier to hide. However over any gas stored up wouldn't last an entire race distance. Might be great for qualy though.
"The true champions are also great men. They are capable of making difficult decisions, of admitting their mistakes and of pushing harder than before when they get up from a fall."

- Ferrari chairman Sergio Marchionne

Big Tea
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Big Tea » Sun Oct 20, 2019 6:38 pm

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:21 pm
atanatizante wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:32 pm
Regarding the air necessary for combustion, it`s a known fact that a turbo’s basic requirement is to make the engine’s combustion process more efficient by compressing the air before it enters the combustion chamber, which boosts the amount of oxygen being pushed through and means more of the fuel experiences complete combustion.
In other words, the more oxygen you got the better combustion is, isn`t it?

So, I have a little theory about Ferrari`s trick: how about a liquid oxygen small container which sprays certain amounts into the ICE air intake when you need the most? They could say it`s for reliability reasons like Renault did back in 2011 with that cold blowing … or maybe they have the best compressor on the grid which is running at the max. only on those particular moments …

My two cents :)
Nitrous oxide aka NOS aka NAWZ! Is much smaller volume and easier to hide. However over any gas stored up wouldn't last an entire race distance. Might be great for qualy though.
You can get small oxygen condensers, my mother had one light enough to use a shoulder strap that produced several ltr a min flow. Is this inside the rule outs side the rule or in a gray area? Could it be used for some other reason and just 'wasted' into the system?
One test is worth a thousand expert opinions

Sierra117
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Sierra117 » Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:13 pm

Big Tea wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 6:38 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:21 pm
atanatizante wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:32 pm
Regarding the air necessary for combustion, it`s a known fact that a turbo’s basic requirement is to make the engine’s combustion process more efficient by compressing the air before it enters the combustion chamber, which boosts the amount of oxygen being pushed through and means more of the fuel experiences complete combustion.
In other words, the more oxygen you got the better combustion is, isn`t it?

So, I have a little theory about Ferrari`s trick: how about a liquid oxygen small container which sprays certain amounts into the ICE air intake when you need the most? They could say it`s for reliability reasons like Renault did back in 2011 with that cold blowing … or maybe they have the best compressor on the grid which is running at the max. only on those particular moments …

My two cents :)
Nitrous oxide aka NOS aka NAWZ! Is much smaller volume and easier to hide. However over any gas stored up wouldn't last an entire race distance. Might be great for qualy though.
You can get small oxygen condensers, my mother had one light enough to use a shoulder strap that produced several ltr a min flow. Is this inside the rule outs side the rule or in a gray area? Could it be used for some other reason and just 'wasted' into the system?
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by PlatinumZealot » Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:59 pm

Big Tea wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 6:38 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:21 pm
atanatizante wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:32 pm
Regarding the air necessary for combustion, it`s a known fact that a turbo’s basic requirement is to make the engine’s combustion process more efficient by compressing the air before it enters the combustion chamber, which boosts the amount of oxygen being pushed through and means more of the fuel experiences complete combustion.
In other words, the more oxygen you got the better combustion is, isn`t it?

So, I have a little theory about Ferrari`s trick: how about a liquid oxygen small container which sprays certain amounts into the ICE air intake when you need the most? They could say it`s for reliability reasons like Renault did back in 2011 with that cold blowing … or maybe they have the best compressor on the grid which is running at the max. only on those particular moments …

My two cents :)
Nitrous oxide aka NOS aka NAWZ! Is much smaller volume and easier to hide. However over any gas stored up wouldn't last an entire race distance. Might be great for qualy though.
You can get small oxygen condensers, my mother had one light enough to use a shoulder strap that produced several ltr a min flow. Is this inside the rule outs side the rule or in a gray area? Could it be used for some other reason and just 'wasted' into the system?
That gave me an idea...
How does ozone do in combustion?
Ozone generators are small devices easy to integrate in an oxygen stream and works well under high pressures.

Could Ferrari be running an ozone generator?? Here is an abstract for diesle engine but likely affect SI engines too.
The effect of ozone addition to the intake air on combustion in compression ignition engines was examined using a Diesel CFR engine. The experimental results show that ozone addition improves the combustion characteristics. Addition of 500 ppm ozone, for example, increases cetane number by 2 to 4 and lowers the compression ratio of the ignition limit by 1 to 2, depending upon the kind of fuel used and the operating conditions. Regarding exhaust emissions, a small decrease in CO, hydrocarbons, and particulates and a small increase in NOx have been observed with ozone addition under the fixed operation condition.
"The true champions are also great men. They are capable of making difficult decisions, of admitting their mistakes and of pushing harder than before when they get up from a fall."

- Ferrari chairman Sergio Marchionne

jumpingfish
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by jumpingfish » Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:48 am

Can someone summarize the data we have? Ferrari uses double battery, also they need slow lap before fast lap during qualy. If they use something in small quantities in bottles (ozone/oxygen), what is the size of this bottle? 0.5l-1l? Do they recharge/replace this bottle during Q1-Q3? Could photographers-spies notice that when technicians work with car?
If they have something to spray for engine, do they use this extraboost in races on starts/during overtakes/defending the position (Vettel and Ham in Suzuka)? Can they spent all oxygen/ozone/nitro during first half of the race and then be noticeable slower on straights at the end?

santos
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by santos » Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:55 am

I think they use a flux capacitor… it's my theory.

Xwang
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Xwang » Mon Oct 21, 2019 1:06 pm

I think they have developed a tractor beam which can be used only during qualifying because in this condition there is no car in front of their car on the straight and so the mechanics on the stands can have a clean line of sight to use it ....

Xwang
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Xwang » Mon Oct 21, 2019 1:07 pm

... obviously I am joking!

KAIZEN
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by KAIZEN » Mon Oct 21, 2019 1:20 pm

https://f1-motorsports-gp.com/s%e3%83%b ... telemetry/
Suzuka Course Record Time 1:27.064 Sebastian Vettel Telemetry
Speed
Image
Throttle(0~10),Brake(0~1)
Image
https://f1-motorsports-gp.com/wp-conten ... T-DATA.csv

<10% throttle open during deceleration to turn 9 and turn 16

Maintaining turbine speed?
MGU-H power generation?
I'm not good at English.
Please consider.

PowerandtheGlory
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by PowerandtheGlory » Mon Oct 21, 2019 2:11 pm

Rumor is Ferrari chargecoolers? They are somehow injecting either Oil or water into the Intercoolers and this was creating a more potency air to mix with the updated fuel with less kncok.. but considering oil burning isnt allowed, then this would seem untrue.

Judging that Mercedes are scratching their heads, Ferrari must be doing something that Merc arent ( as opposed to doing something better) so i think Ferrari have a tech that other teams havent copied yet.

And they are probably looking at the fuel as well because its a differentiator between the 2 cars.

Am i correct in saying Merc and ferrari still have different engine architecture as well i.e Merc have split turbo and Ferrari have turbo and compressor bolted together??
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by dans79 » Mon Oct 21, 2019 3:35 pm

Anyone know or willing to hazard a guess who this is?

That's a pretty bold statement even as an unnamed source.

https://www.grandprix.com/news/teams-as ... ality.html
An unnamed Ferrari rival is quoted as saying: "The absurd advantage is impossible to accomplish legally, because the technology is already very well developed.

"Ferrari cheats and the FIA knows it. But it doesn't matter, because it would be a huge scandal."