Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
enri_the_red
enri_the_red
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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I don't know if it's relevant, but the the fuel flow sensors must meet (see FIA required specifications) electromagnetic compatibility SAE J1113/2 1996

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RZS10
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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When the motorsport network doesn't run the same story on all their sites you know that it's catered to a certain audience ........

I guess this is the video polite mentioned
https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/repor ... /4593121/
If they believed there was actually anything to the story they'd have articles or videos about it on at least several of those sites
Image

There is absolutely nothing about that topic on any of them apart from the italian one ... lol

Polite
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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RZS10 wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 4:13 pm
When the motorsport network doesn't run the same story on all their sites you know that it's catered to a certain audience ........

I guess this is the video polite mentioned
https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/repor ... /4593121/
If they believed there was actually anything to the story they'd have articles or videos about it on at least several of those sites
https://i.imgur.com/S5GbR2M.png

There is absolutely nothing about that topic on any of them apart from the italian one ... lol
agree.. motorsport wants clicks!

but also on formulapassion.it article by Alberto Antonini
https://www.formulapassion.it/motorspor ... 65651.html

.. a lot of informations about those honda's attempt to cheat on the fuel flow and/or the likkage of oil from the ers cooling system.
Last edited by Polite on Wed Nov 06, 2019 4:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Polite
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Polite wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 3:32 pm
LM10 wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:58 pm
Polite wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:15 am


maybe.. or Mercedes gives them informations on the Ferrari PU (Sassi and Allison... for years now did that, but Mercedes doesnt want to be the one protesting to fia)

rumors from motorsport.it: Honda involved in a spy story, their ICE is a copy of the Ferrari one.. also they tried to cheat on the fuel flow this season, several times, till the RaceDirection asked em to stop (noone here remember the story of the pressure of the injection system? was against Honda.. but everyone here thinking it was for Ferrari )..
Can you link that motorsport article please?
not an article but a video review of the USA gp..

"A tenere banco è anche la polemica innescata da Verstappen sul motore della Ferrari, ma a quanto pare anche Honda non sarebbe esente da "inchieste""
"The controversy triggered by Verstappen on the Ferrari engine is the main theme, but apparently even Honda would not be exempt from inquiries"

then in the video they say that the honda ICE is so similar to the Ferrari one that cannot be fortuity and the focus is the motorhead!

SORRY for not linking the site...
https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/repor ... a/4593121/ this

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Mattchu
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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I have a question that hopefully one of the resident engine gurus could answer (GG, Mudflap, wuzak, dans, etc) :)

With all the furore surrounding the recent TD and the possible affects it had on the Ferrari PU and specifically on the measurement of fuel flow, what would likely be the maximum/optimum fuel flow in the ICE`s that Formula 1 is using at the moment?
Obviously as the engine is limited to 1.6 litres, the rpm is also limited and the amount of fuel allowed to be used per race is limited there must be a theoretical cut off point [efficiency accounted for]. Why do we have a need for the fuel flow sensor/meter. Couldn`t they just say, you have x amount of fuel for the race [with x litres left at the end for testing], use that how you see fit...

Or am I missing something blindingly obvious?

Cheers,

p.s. I don`t think this is how Ferrari have a better PU, I still think they have a better MGUH system than anyone else!

ncx
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Mudflap wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:19 pm
ncx wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 5:04 pm
Mudflap wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:07 am
It should be possible to alias the sensor measurement if they can somehow produce a high enough frequency pulsation.
The low pressure pumps are usually electrically driven gear pumps so they would produce pulses at tooth pass frequency. Given a high enough pump speed and number of teeth it could be achievable.

For example a gear with 13 teeth spinning at 10000 RPM would produce pulses close to the 2 kHz sampling frequency MM mentioned earlier.
The pump motor could be controlled to produce the desired frequency and phase angle such that the flow sensor never samples the flow peaks.
That's surely a more interesting conjecture than the one on the invisible fuel cache or the one on the nearby electric cable that can alter the flow-meter function without causing noticeably anomalous readings.

In order to anti-synchronize the flow illegal peaks against the measurements, they would need to detect the ultrasound impulses and modulate the pump accordingly, using a sensor for the sensor (so to speak) which should pass unnoticed through scrutineering together with the relative electronics and software, and the whole secret system should work almost perfectly on a sub-millisecond time-scale. Even if the time intervals between measurements were always exactly equal (no drift, no thermal effects, etc) and that therefore the system would have to be fine-tuned only occasionally during the race, it is imo quite unlikely to be feasible, especially considering that the movement of mechanical parts is involved.
I think there's a more practical way of doing it (obviously I am arguing purely for the sake of it and because I find it interesting - I am in no way implying that any team does it).

One could simply "calibrate" the pumps by running the engine at a known operating point (let's say 95 kg/h) and then just slightly tune the phase angle. Adjusting the phase angle in one direction would cause an increase in FFM measurement (even though the operating point and hence real fuel flow is unchanged) while going the other way would cause the reading to decrease. Such calibration could probably be built into a closed loop control system that ensures the frequency and phase never drift too far.

This way all that is really required is that the real fuel flow rate is very well mapped for the entire range of engine operating conditions which isn't such an unlikely proposition.

There's also multiple ways of creating the 2kHz pulses - abrupt diameter changes, PRV flutter, etc but I proposed the electrical gear pump since it offers the simplest way of controlling the phase angle.
Yes, stabilizing the frequency and phase of the peaks per se is fairly unproblematic, at least in principle, but how would you propose (hypothetically, of course) to control the _relative_ phase of flow peaks vs FFM measurements? If your proposal involved a U/S detector, we would be back into the first reply of mine.

Xwang
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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I have not understood if one of the RB question was about the possibility to create a properly phased pulsating fuel flow so that the flow meters measures the low value and between two measurements there is the high value (outside 100kg/h). In such a case the fuel flow would read the instantaneous fuel flow correctly, but the real fuel flow would be more (I am not saying it is feasible to do such a thing at all and I have my doubts).
In this document:
https://www.flowmeters.co.uk/the-effect ... -accuracy/
(the first google answer to "flow vs pressure liquid pulsating" search criteria)
it is said that some kind of pumps create more pulsating flows than others.
My questions are:
1) was this one of the RB requests?
2) if yes, do the F1 flow meters work at exactly 2.2kHz or are they rate variable devices (in the latter case I doubt it is possible to synchronize a fuel pump with a pseudo random variable electronic signal*)?

* I mean if the fuel flow meter measure in a range up to 2.2kHz with a variable frequency so that the actual measurement rate is not known outside the sensor, it is not possible to synchronize the fuel pump.
I'm still learning English so please excuse me if my English is not good enough and feel free to correct me via PM if you want.

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turbof1
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Mattchu wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 4:26 pm
I have a question that hopefully one of the resident engine gurus could answer (GG, Mudflap, wuzak, dans, etc) :)

With all the furore surrounding the recent TD and the possible affects it had on the Ferrari PU and specifically on the measurement of fuel flow, what would likely be the maximum/optimum fuel flow in the ICE`s that Formula 1 is using at the moment?
Obviously as the engine is limited to 1.6 litres, the rpm is also limited and the amount of fuel allowed to be used per race is limited there must be a theoretical cut off point [efficiency accounted for]. Why do we have a need for the fuel flow sensor/meter. Couldn`t they just say, you have x amount of fuel for the race [with x litres left at the end for testing], use that how you see fit...

Or am I missing something blindingly obvious?

Cheers,

p.s. I don`t think this is how Ferrari have a better PU, I still think they have a better MGUH system than anyone else!
the 100kg/h is a measure to cap horsepower and probably to reduce spending outlets. Without it, teams would definitely run 15,000RPM.
#AeroFrodo

Xwang
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Mattchu wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 4:26 pm
I have a question that hopefully one of the resident engine gurus could answer (GG, Mudflap, wuzak, dans, etc) :)

With all the furore surrounding the recent TD and the possible affects it had on the Ferrari PU and specifically on the measurement of fuel flow, what would likely be the maximum/optimum fuel flow in the ICE`s that Formula 1 is using at the moment?
Obviously as the engine is limited to 1.6 litres, the rpm is also limited and the amount of fuel allowed to be used per race is limited there must be a theoretical cut off point [efficiency accounted for]. Why do we have a need for the fuel flow sensor/meter. Couldn`t they just say, you have x amount of fuel for the race [with x litres left at the end for testing], use that how you see fit...

Or am I missing something blindingly obvious?

Cheers,

p.s. I don`t think this is how Ferrari have a better PU, I still think they have a better MGUH system than anyone else!
As far as I know in a turbo engine without maximum air pressure limit (as actual F1 rules) you need a fuel flow limit to avoid having a lot more power in qualification mode and overtake one.
Without a fuel flow limit the trade off would be to identify a best efficiency operating point for normal race condition and then run at higher boost value during qualification laps (as permitted by the "strength of the ICE").
Before the 1987 season, in qualification mode the 1500cc F1 engines had more than 1300CV!!!
I'm still learning English so please excuse me if my English is not good enough and feel free to correct me via PM if you want.

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RZS10
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Polite wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 4:20 pm
but also on formulapassion.it article by Alberto Antonini
https://www.formulapassion.it/motorspor ... 65651.html

.. a lot of informations about those honda's attempt to cheat on the fuel flow and/or the likkage of oil from the ers cooling system.
This poorly written article (rather rant/blogpost) by the former Ferrari press officer is nothing but polemics, rumours, accusations and opinion making - not exactly a reliable source, is it?

Xwang
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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RZS10 wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 4:49 pm
Polite wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 4:20 pm
but also on formulapassion.it article by Alberto Antonini
https://www.formulapassion.it/motorspor ... 65651.html

.. a lot of informations about those honda's attempt to cheat on the fuel flow and/or the likkage of oil from the ers cooling system.
This poorly written article (rather rant/blogpost) by the former Ferrari press officer is nothing but polemics, rumours, accusations and opinion making - not exactly a reliable source, is it?
How do you judge this one:
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/ferr ... a/4593473/

(IMHO it is nothing but polemics, rumours, accusations and opinion making - not exactly a reliable source, but with opposite view than Antonini's one).
Where is the truth?
Maybe here:
I'm still learning English so please excuse me if my English is not good enough and feel free to correct me via PM if you want.

nzjrs
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Xwang wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 4:51 pm

How do you judge this one:
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/ferr ... a/4593473/

(IMHO it is nothing but polemics, rumours, accusations and opinion making - not exactly a reliable source, but with opposite view than Antonini's one).
Where is the truth?
Ohh :( :( the thread was going so well with a nice technical discussion of the possible weaknesses of the fuel sensor. Are we going to play shitty-sources-ping-pong now?

Xwang
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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nzjrs wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 4:55 pm
Xwang wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 4:51 pm

How do you judge this one:
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/ferr ... a/4593473/

(IMHO it is nothing but polemics, rumours, accusations and opinion making - not exactly a reliable source, but with opposite view than Antonini's one).
Where is the truth?
Ohh :( :( the thread was going so well with a nice technical discussion of the possible weaknesses of the fuel sensor. Are we going to play shitty-sources-ping-pong now?
Maybe it is important to understand which are the shitty-sources, do you agree?
We have some graphs that say that nothing has changed as far as speed differences in the last races (on comparable straights). Obviously I do not have the original raw telemetry data to check the facts.
Honda chief and RB and Mercedes are telling a completely different story.
F1 sporting boss Ross Brawn told Auto Motor und Sport: "I think Ferrari's opponents read into the numbers what they want to read."
So IMHO it seems important to understand if something has really changed or not after the TD.
In my opinion no, but it is just my opinion.
I'm still learning English so please excuse me if my English is not good enough and feel free to correct me via PM if you want.

Polite
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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RZS10 wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 4:49 pm
Polite wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 4:20 pm
but also on formulapassion.it article by Alberto Antonini
https://www.formulapassion.it/motorspor ... 65651.html

.. a lot of informations about those honda's attempt to cheat on the fuel flow and/or the likkage of oil from the ers cooling system.
This poorly written article (rather rant/blogpost) by the former Ferrari press officer is nothing but polemics, rumours, accusations and opinion making - not exactly a reliable source, is it?
ofc, marko's, max's and toto's are reliable more than a journalist =D>

i think nothing changed in the last gp.. Ferrari put way more DF and Cx with the aero upgrade: it was clear even during the singapore Gp that the new aero fixed the tire issue but at the cost of more drag!

as i said, the qualimode was there in the US GP.. and if the peak power is the main advantage of Ferrari and if the new TD affected them, then the qualimode should have been the first to be affected by the TD!.. but... :mrgreen:

dans79
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Mattchu wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 4:26 pm
Why do we have a need for the fuel flow sensor/meter. Couldn`t they just say, you have x amount of fuel for the race [with x litres left at the end for testing], use that how you see fit...
The are trying to push the manufactures into making higher efficiency engines.

take a look at the rules.

5.1.3 Crankshaft rotational speed must not exceed 15000rpm.
5.1.4 Fuel mass flow must not exceed 100kg/h.
5.1.5 Below 10500rpm the fuel mass flow must not exceed Q (kg/h) = 0.009 N(rpm)+ 5.5.

If flow rate wasn't controlled it would be just like in the 80's when engine power during the race was substantially less than during qualifying.
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