Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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henry
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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wuzak wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 2:06 am
Tommy Cookers wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:08 pm
so fuel accumulation is allowed - but only within this timebase ?
Fuel accumulation is not allowed, beyond what is contained in the fuel lines.

I believe a couple of seasons ago there was a directive limiting the size of the fuel lines and/or the flexibility of the fuel lines (to act as an accumulator).
The 2021 regulations include a schematic of the fuel system an prescribed lengths for fuel pipes within the schematic. This is possibly a roll up of the TD(s).
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henry
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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saviour stivala wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:40 pm
@NCX. There is no fuel pulses in the fuel passing through the fuel flow meter by the low pressure electrically driven fuel lift pumps as the fuel that passes through the fuel flow meter is fuel at a constant low pressured in the fuel pot. Pot capacity approx 2.5kg/3.0-3.5l.
.
In the 2021 regulations there is a schematic of the fuel system, §6.6.1.

The sequence is lift pump > collector pot > primer pump > fuel flow sensor. It is the primer pump that would generate any pulses.

So pressure in the collector is not the issue, constant or otherwise.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

stevesingo
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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saviour stivala wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:40 pm
@NCX. There is no fuel pulses in the fuel passing through the fuel flow meter by the low pressure electrically driven fuel lift pumps as the fuel that passes through the fuel flow meter is fuel at a constant low pressured in the fuel pot. Pot capacity approx 2.5kg/3.0-3.5l.
The following might not concern you, but it might concern others. All fuel that passes through the fuel flow meter must end-up being combusted, which means that regardless of fuel system diagrams shown the F1 system have no excess fuel return to fuel tank (return-less fuel system). The fuel flow meter only measures fuel flow passing through it, it does not control the flow mass passing through it. The flow mass control is controlled by the fuel injection system. Regardless of “it is not true” what goes through the injectors (flow mass) regardless of the mille or Nano seconds and number of injections, including fuel pressure and temperature is logged in data logger.
The ability/capability of the FIA/race control to police the fuel flow as well as the race fuel weight used with the means and tools at their disposal is as near foolproof as could be.
There have been 4 fuel rules infringements that I know of since the start of the new power unit formula. 3 of these fuel flow infringements happened only once on just ‘one part’ of a lap of the whole race, yet they did not escape the FIA/race control monitoring of the fuel rules.
2014 RBR notified several times during the race that they were exceeding the fuel flow limits. RBR argued that according to their data logger their fuel flow through their injectors were within the rules and that they preferred to go by their data logger instead of the fuel flow meter reading. They ended disqualified.
2018 Force India disqualified from eight place in US GP, car was found to have breached fuel flow limit during one part of the opening lap.
2018 Haas disqualified from US GP, car was found to have used more fuel than that allowed (fuel load). The rule breach happened ‘only on the last lap’.
2019 RBR car exceed fuel flow limit in Baku qualifying 1 (over one lap) car was disqualified from qualifying.
Whilst I fully agree with what you are saying, what is to stop a team from inputting incorrect injector flow data (g/ms) in to the ECU? The Data may show compliance with the limit, but only based an a false constant.

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One and Only
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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wuzak wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 2:09 am
saviour stivala wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 3:41 am
ncx wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:00 pm


Do you think there is no way to modulate significantly the fuel flow into the FFM by means of devices that are inconspicuous enough to pass scrutiny?
"The part of the fuel system called all in the fuel tank" explains how that part of the fuel system works. "The part of the fuel system called all on the engine" explains how that part of that fuel system works. As to what I think, which of course will only be my personal opinion. If a formula one team of the caliber, capability and experience of RBR says that the fuel flow sensor/meter can be made to show a false reading other than the actual fuel flow that passes through it. Only a fool will not believe RBR. I also 'think', which of course is only my personal opinion. that if the fuel flow sensor/meter is made to show a false reading other than the actual fuel flow that passes through it. only a fool will believe that the FIA will not be able to notice that with all the controlling means they have.
If it is true, that proves that Red Bull and Honda have been experimenting with cheating the fuel flow meter, which has no bearing on whether or not Ferrari have been doing the same.

If Honda has been experimenting with cheating the fuel flow meter I think the FIA would be within their rights to ask Red Bull/Honda for an explanation.
Exactly my thoughts. What is stance of FIA on these matters? Basically team is spending money on something they are pretty sure is illegal just to force FIA to issue TD because the team believes that's what their rivals are doing. How can anyone be sure Red Bull wasn't trying to find a way to cheat FF sensor, found it, but deemed it too risky and then just asked FIA for clarification in order to hurt their rivals if they are doing something similar?
"Don't you know there ain't no devil, it's just God when he's drunk." Tom Waits

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Sieper
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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One and Only wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:52 am
wuzak wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 2:09 am
saviour stivala wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 3:41 am

"The part of the fuel system called all in the fuel tank" explains how that part of the fuel system works. "The part of the fuel system called all on the engine" explains how that part of that fuel system works. As to what I think, which of course will only be my personal opinion. If a formula one team of the caliber, capability and experience of RBR says that the fuel flow sensor/meter can be made to show a false reading other than the actual fuel flow that passes through it. Only a fool will not believe RBR. I also 'think', which of course is only my personal opinion. that if the fuel flow sensor/meter is made to show a false reading other than the actual fuel flow that passes through it. only a fool will believe that the FIA will not be able to notice that with all the controlling means they have.
If it is true, that proves that Red Bull and Honda have been experimenting with cheating the fuel flow meter, which has no bearing on whether or not Ferrari have been doing the same.

If Honda has been experimenting with cheating the fuel flow meter I think the FIA would be within their rights to ask Red Bull/Honda for an explanation.
Exactly my thoughts. What is stance of FIA on these matters? Basically team is spending money on something they are pretty sure is illegal just to force FIA to issue TD because the team believes that's what their rivals are doing. How can anyone be sure Red Bull wasn't trying to find a way to cheat FF sensor, found it, but deemed it too risky and then just asked FIA for clarification in order to hurt their rivals if they are doing something similar?
Because that is reverse thinking if you are looking at the realities of what happened so far. The other teams noticed Ferrari must be doing something out of the (gps) data that they are seeing, the on track behaviour etc. To them it is pretty clear what was going on. So then it is a matter of understanding how you could get that kind of behavior, extra fuel would then (apparently) seem the only viable conclusion. So what could be causing that, and then just formulate your question in such a way that that becomes (almost?) impossible to continue, without even the need to built a system like this yourself.

This is exactly what happened in the part of the TD that was published.

I think Ferrari has been developing / fine tuning this for some time already. Not just after the summer break. We also have a maximum fuel allowance increase of 105 to 110kg per start this season. I can't help but think suspect about that now.

Maybe after Hungary they threw out all caution and started using the fuel sensor flow limit trick to the maximum, or simply made it even more efficient. RBR and Merc probably did not know yet exactly how Ferrari achieved this.
Just a personal interest, a Family recreating a WW2 May 1940 Dutch warbird from scratch: https://www.facebook.com/FlyingFokkerD21/

Dr. Acula
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Sieper wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:17 am
Because that is reverse thinking if you are looking at the realities of what happened so far. The other teams noticed Ferrari must be doing something out of the (gps) data that they are seeing, the on track behaviour etc. To them it is pretty clear what was going on. So then it is a matter of understanding how you could get that kind of behavior, extra fuel would then (apparently) seem the only viable conclusion. So what could be causing that, and then just formulate your question in such a way that that becomes (almost?) impossible to continue, without even the need to built a system like this yourself.

This is exactly what happened in the part of the TD that was published.

I think Ferrari has been developing / fine tuning this for some time already. Not just after the summer break. We also have a maximum fuel allowance increase of 105 to 110kg per start this season. I can't help but think suspect about that now.

Maybe after Hungary they threw out all caution and started using the fuel sensor flow limit trick to the maximum, or simply made it even more efficient. RBR and Merc probably did not know yet exactly how Ferrari achieved this.
Thinking like this is deeply flawed. Basically if you go this route you can accuse anyone of cheating who has a faster car than yourself. Why should extra fuel be the only viable conclusion? We had the same shitshow in this thread about a year ago after the german GP 2018 when Ferrari had already an advantage under acceleration on some parts of the track which nobody could properly explain. Back then some people also accused Ferrari of cheating only because apparently Ferrari is using a different Battery layout than anybody else. The result was, that the FIA screwed a second energy flow sensor on the Ferrari battery, which did absolutly nothing. The Battery was constructed and operated inside the rules at all times and the FIA knew this from the get go, they just bolted the second sensor to the battery so the other manufacturers would shut up.

Bill
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Problems with your assertion is that you conveniently left out the bit were Ferrari lose the performance advantage when second sensor is installed in their car

https://f1i.com/news/319126-ferrari-pow ... ensor.html

The problem with Ferrari is that fia is always playing favorites with them they are the only team who have technical veto over the regulations.

djones
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Dr. Acula wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:56 am
Sieper wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:17 am
Because that is reverse thinking if you are looking at the realities of what happened so far. The other teams noticed Ferrari must be doing something out of the (gps) data that they are seeing, the on track behaviour etc. To them it is pretty clear what was going on. So then it is a matter of understanding how you could get that kind of behavior, extra fuel would then (apparently) seem the only viable conclusion. So what could be causing that, and then just formulate your question in such a way that that becomes (almost?) impossible to continue, without even the need to built a system like this yourself.

This is exactly what happened in the part of the TD that was published.

I think Ferrari has been developing / fine tuning this for some time already. Not just after the summer break. We also have a maximum fuel allowance increase of 105 to 110kg per start this season. I can't help but think suspect about that now.

Maybe after Hungary they threw out all caution and started using the fuel sensor flow limit trick to the maximum, or simply made it even more efficient. RBR and Merc probably did not know yet exactly how Ferrari achieved this.
Thinking like this is deeply flawed. Basically if you go this route you can accuse anyone of cheating who has a faster car than yourself. Why should extra fuel be the only viable conclusion? We had the same shitshow in this thread about a year ago after the german GP 2018 when Ferrari had already an advantage under acceleration on some parts of the track which nobody could properly explain. Back then some people also accused Ferrari of cheating only because apparently Ferrari is using a different Battery layout than anybody else. The result was, that the FIA screwed a second energy flow sensor on the Ferrari battery, which did absolutly nothing. The Battery was constructed and operated inside the rules at all times and the FIA knew this from the get go, they just bolted the second sensor to the battery so the other manufacturers would shut up.
This is incorrect. Once the second sensor was fitted to the battery the perfromance of Ferrari dropped off noticably for every race after in the season.

If a car is a little bit faster or is faster in an area you know you have done a poor job then I think nobody will be raising the cheating alarm. The problem for Ferrari is they went too far.

By that I mean they should have used the 'trick' on the fuel sensor to gain a bit of extra speed, not a crazy amount. When somebody makes a huge step in an area that is at a high stage of dininishing returns then alarm bells ring and people get accused of cheating.

And to add another dimension lets not forget when there were oil burning accusations the ONLY team that had a second oil tank was Ferrari. So maybe Ferrari are known to just be cheaters and that is why they get things like this said/directed at them.

Polite
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Bill wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:20 pm
Problems with your assertion is that you conveniently left out the bit were Ferrari lose the performance advantage when second sensor is installed in their car

https://f1i.com/news/319126-ferrari-pow ... ensor.html

The problem with Ferrari is that fia is always playing favorites with them they are the only team who have technical veto over the regulations.
Fake.. Mercedes did a step forward in performance with the rear rims and a new rear suspension. ..
the second sensors was there till Canada 18, where vettel won the race while doing tests required by the FIA.. so is FALSE NEWS
the race after Mercedes bringed their rear updates...

just fan's fake news :mrgreen:

dans79
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Polite wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:27 pm
Bill wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:20 pm
Problems with your assertion is that you conveniently left out the bit were Ferrari lose the performance advantage when second sensor is installed in their car

https://f1i.com/news/319126-ferrari-pow ... ensor.html

The problem with Ferrari is that fia is always playing favorites with them they are the only team who have technical veto over the regulations.
Fake.. Mercedes did a step forward in performance with the rear rims and a new rear suspension. ..
the second sensors was there till Canada 18, where vettel won the race while doing tests required by the FIA.. so is FALSE NEWS
the race after Mercedes bringed their rear updates...

just fan's fake news :mrgreen:
The second sensor was on the car well past Canada.
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Polite
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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dans79 wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 1:42 pm
Polite wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:27 pm
Bill wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:20 pm
Problems with your assertion is that you conveniently left out the bit were Ferrari lose the performance advantage when second sensor is installed in their car

https://f1i.com/news/319126-ferrari-pow ... ensor.html

The problem with Ferrari is that fia is always playing favorites with them they are the only team who have technical veto over the regulations.
Fake.. Mercedes did a step forward in performance with the rear rims and a new rear suspension. ..
the second sensors was there till Canada 18, where vettel won the race while doing tests required by the FIA.. so is FALSE NEWS
the race after Mercedes bringed their rear updates...

just fan's fake news :mrgreen:
The second sensor was on the car well past Canada.
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/new- ... 0/3107583/
not really. sorry.. Fia put the new control system in Canada on Ferrari. Then for all other cars. :mrgreen:
also this, https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13926 ... rrari-form

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One and Only
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Sieper wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:17 am
One and Only wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:52 am
wuzak wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 2:09 am


If it is true, that proves that Red Bull and Honda have been experimenting with cheating the fuel flow meter, which has no bearing on whether or not Ferrari have been doing the same.

If Honda has been experimenting with cheating the fuel flow meter I think the FIA would be within their rights to ask Red Bull/Honda for an explanation.
Exactly my thoughts. What is stance of FIA on these matters? Basically team is spending money on something they are pretty sure is illegal just to force FIA to issue TD because the team believes that's what their rivals are doing. How can anyone be sure Red Bull wasn't trying to find a way to cheat FF sensor, found it, but deemed it too risky and then just asked FIA for clarification in order to hurt their rivals if they are doing something similar?
Because that is reverse thinking if you are looking at the realities of what happened so far. The other teams noticed Ferrari must be doing something out of the (gps) data that they are seeing, the on track behaviour etc. To them it is pretty clear what was going on. So then it is a matter of understanding how you could get that kind of behavior, extra fuel would then (apparently) seem the only viable conclusion. So what could be causing that, and then just formulate your question in such a way that that becomes (almost?) impossible to continue, without even the need to built a system like this yourself.

This is exactly what happened in the part of the TD that was published.

I think Ferrari has been developing / fine tuning this for some time already. Not just after the summer break. We also have a maximum fuel allowance increase of 105 to 110kg per start this season. I can't help but think suspect about that now.

Maybe after Hungary they threw out all caution and started using the fuel sensor flow limit trick to the maximum, or simply made it even more efficient. RBR and Merc probably did not know yet exactly how Ferrari achieved this.
That is one way it can be explained. I was asking what if we try to explain it other way? What if FIA takes that stance? Who can tell for sure which way is the correct one? Many times teams ask FIA if something is legal. Sometimes they point out to certain team's design which is already implemented, sometimes they present the theory. I cannot remember a case where someone brought tested solution before FIA and asked for clarification (which doesn't mean it didn't happen). I don't agree extra fuel is the only viable explanation with hybrid power units.
"Don't you know there ain't no devil, it's just God when he's drunk." Tom Waits

saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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henry wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:32 am
saviour stivala wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:40 pm
@NCX. There is no fuel pulses in the fuel passing through the fuel flow meter by the low pressure electrically driven fuel lift pumps as the fuel that passes through the fuel flow meter is fuel at a constant low pressured in the fuel pot. Pot capacity approx 2.5kg/3.0-3.5l.
.
In the 2021 regulations there is a schematic of the fuel system, §6.6.1.

The sequence is lift pump > collector pot > primer pump > fuel flow sensor. It is the primer pump that would generate any pulses.

So pressure in the collector is not the issue, constant or otherwise.

I cannot comment on what is going to be used in 2021 as I am not privy to the information you posted. These on here conversations/discussions are about the system that is being used at present, A system that have been used from at least the NA 2.4L V8 era, where the 'collector-pot (looks like a soda bottle upside down) is pressurized with fuel (low pressure) by the lift pumps, this low pressure fuel passes through the fuel sensor/meter on its way to the mechanical high pressure pump intake normally driven by an inlet camshaft. this system have no 'primer pump' between collector-pot and fuel flow sensor/meter so there is no pulses through the fuel flow sensor/meter. It is interesting to know that according to you in 2021 by the addition of a 'primer pump' into the system,in between the collector-pot and the fuel flow sensor/meter there is going to be generated pulses through the fuel flow sensor/meter.

dans79
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Polite wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 1:48 pm
dans79 wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 1:42 pm
Polite wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:27 pm


Fake.. Mercedes did a step forward in performance with the rear rims and a new rear suspension. ..
the second sensors was there till Canada 18, where vettel won the race while doing tests required by the FIA.. so is FALSE NEWS
the race after Mercedes bringed their rear updates...

just fan's fake news :mrgreen:
The second sensor was on the car well past Canada.
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/new- ... 0/3107583/
not really. sorry.. Fia put the new control system in Canada on Ferrari. Then for all other cars. :mrgreen:
also this, https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13926 ... rrari-form
You know, those two articles contradict each other.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/new- ... 0/3107583/
Contrary to earlier reports, Whiting says no extra sensors were fitted to the Ferraris in Monaco, and instead the FIA had to pursue a more complicated process to check how the system was operating.
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13926 ... rrari-form
The FIA duly added two sensors to the Ferraris to carefully monitor its energy usage, and was satisfied that the Italian outfit was fully compliant with regulations.
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Sieper
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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One and Only wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 2:09 pm
Sieper wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:17 am
One and Only wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:52 am

Exactly my thoughts. What is stance of FIA on these matters? Basically team is spending money on something they are pretty sure is illegal just to force FIA to issue TD because the team believes that's what their rivals are doing. How can anyone be sure Red Bull wasn't trying to find a way to cheat FF sensor, found it, but deemed it too risky and then just asked FIA for clarification in order to hurt their rivals if they are doing something similar?
Because that is reverse thinking if you are looking at the realities of what happened so far. The other teams noticed Ferrari must be doing something out of the (gps) data that they are seeing, the on track behaviour etc. To them it is pretty clear what was going on. So then it is a matter of understanding how you could get that kind of behavior, extra fuel would then (apparently) seem the only viable conclusion. So what could be causing that, and then just formulate your question in such a way that that becomes (almost?) impossible to continue, without even the need to built a system like this yourself.

This is exactly what happened in the part of the TD that was published.

I think Ferrari has been developing / fine tuning this for some time already. Not just after the summer break. We also have a maximum fuel allowance increase of 105 to 110kg per start this season. I can't help but think suspect about that now.

Maybe after Hungary they threw out all caution and started using the fuel sensor flow limit trick to the maximum, or simply made it even more efficient. RBR and Merc probably did not know yet exactly how Ferrari achieved this.
That is one way it can be explained. I was asking what if we try to explain it other way? What if FIA takes that stance? Who can tell for sure which way is the correct one? Many times teams ask FIA if something is legal. Sometimes they point out to certain team's design which is already implemented, sometimes they present the theory. I cannot remember a case where someone brought tested solution before FIA and asked for clarification (which doesn't mean it didn't happen). I don't agree extra fuel is the only viable explanation with hybrid power units.
No indeed, we (one) can never tell for sure. Alternative path's of thinking are certainly possible. But to me the current hypotheses matches with the actual things we saw happening very well and therefore it seems the most viable one. Without an actual FIA led investigation we will only ever be able to guess.

I expect Ferrari will be rebouncing the coming race weekend. It is not like they have a bad PU, they have already a very strong one, even without the (hypothetical) extra fuel being injected at starts of long straights. Their mappings will have been optimized for that though. Now they have two weeks to write mappings for next race without the extra boost (again, assuming they have that, but that is what we are talking about in this thread now the past several days). This will have major impact on your entire mapping for the lap.
Just a personal interest, a Family recreating a WW2 May 1940 Dutch warbird from scratch: https://www.facebook.com/FlyingFokkerD21/