Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
f1jcw
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Joined: 21 Feb 2019, 21:15

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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timbo wrote:
06 Mar 2020, 14:51
I don't think "the trick" involves the storage of fuel because from what I have seen, the extra power was available only in Q3 and the first lap of the race. Other than that Ferrari was fast on the straights but not unusually so.
I don't see a reason why strategies using fuel storage can't be used multiple times in the race.
Could it be something like chilling of the intercooler? Perhaps letting oil or fuel evaporate while the car is slow?
Monza?

timbo
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Joined: 22 Oct 2007, 10:14

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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f1jcw wrote:
06 Mar 2020, 21:43
timbo wrote:
06 Mar 2020, 14:51
I don't think "the trick" involves the storage of fuel because from what I have seen, the extra power was available only in Q3 and the first lap of the race. Other than that Ferrari was fast on the straights but not unusually so.
I don't see a reason why strategies using fuel storage can't be used multiple times in the race.
Could it be something like chilling of the intercooler? Perhaps letting oil or fuel evaporate while the car is slow?
Monza?
IMO it was just the case of Mercedes being inherently a draggier car.

timbo
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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hollus wrote:
06 Mar 2020, 21:35
Anything involving evaporation is forbidden in the rules. "No intentional change of phase". Inside the cooling system, or course. Outside, who knows.
7.5 Cooling systems :
The cooling systems of the power unit, including that of the air destined for combustion, must not intentionally make use of the latent heat of vaporisation of any fluid with the exception of fuel for the normal purpose of combustion in the engine as described in Article 5.10.3.
I wonder if an intercooler is considered to be a part of the cooling system.

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hollus
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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including that of the air destined for combustion
Rivals, not enemies.

timbo
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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hollus wrote:
06 Mar 2020, 22:06
including that of the air destined for combustion
Ah, sorry. Yeah, but upon closer reading, I notice another thing: what is "intentionally make use"?
Can it be that during a slow-down lap something, e.g. oil or fuel accumulates somewhere in the engine auxiliaries? If accumulated fuel is not injected into the cylinders it won't circumvent fuel flow rules, right?

saviour stivala
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Joined: 25 Apr 2018, 12:54

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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timbo wrote:
06 Mar 2020, 21:56
hollus wrote:
06 Mar 2020, 21:35
Anything involving evaporation is forbidden in the rules. "No intentional change of phase". Inside the cooling system, or course. Outside, who knows.
7.5 Cooling systems :
The cooling systems of the power unit, including that of the air destined for combustion, must not intentionally make use of the latent heat of vaporisation of any fluid with the exception of fuel for the normal purpose of combustion in the engine as described in Article 5.10.3.
I wonder if an intercooler is considered to be a part of the cooling system.
If an intercooler is not considered to be a part of the cooling system, what is it considered to be?.

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PlatinumZealot
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Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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What about that extra 4.8kg of fuel in AbuDahbi?

A few questions come to mind...

1) If Ferrari were already "weakened" by new ruling at this point, why would they have intentions of using that extra 4.8kg of fuel if they know they will be caught by the second fuel flow meter?

2) If Ferrari were, as they claim, only slower because they had more drag in the setup, as they were operating on the same engine mode as before, surely it must mean if they were cheating in AbuDhabi, that they knew that the second flow meter could not detect the illegal fuel flow? Again this means their engine should not have gotten slower.

3) If this is the way that Ferrari beats the flow meters, can we rule out the addition of fuel via inter-cooler theories?
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izzy
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Joined: 26 May 2019, 22:28

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
06 Mar 2020, 22:55
What about that extra 4.8kg of fuel in AbuDahbi?

A few questions come to mind...

1) If Ferrari were already "weakened" by new ruling at this point, why would they have intentions of using that extra 4.8kg of fuel if they know they will be caught by the second fuel flow meter?

2) If Ferrari were, as they claim, only slower because they had more drag in the setup, as they were operating on the same engine mode as before, surely it must mean if they were cheating in AbuDhabi, that they knew that the second flow meter could not detect the illegal fuel flow? Again this means their engine should not have gotten slower.

3) If this is the way that Ferrari beats the flow meters, can we rule out the addition of fuel via inter-cooler theories?
i thought the second fuel meter only came onto the cars this year?

and does the extra fuel have a connection? i mean they can burn 110 kg in a race easily at 100kg/hr, FIA would just know they had 98 or whatever onboard to start with (it was less than 110) and that the flow rate varied between 80kg/hr or whatever and 100, during the race. If they added up the fuel flow rate over time they'd get any excess flow anyway

And on the intercooler oil, personally my guess is they did everything, and the performance was so huge because it was everything. There's no reason to use oil for cooling as its specific heat is hopeless, the only reason would be the clever oozing into the intake. Plus the twin battery. And finally it was too much and FIA said it was too much and they had to take it all off

bosyber
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Joined: 15 Sep 2015, 22:41

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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The advantage of that theory is that it would explain why they had to start somewhat from scratch (as, for example, AMuS claims), with a larger set of rule-bending enhancements the PU was optimized around being lost to them.

catv
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Joined: 07 Mar 2020, 15:16

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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timbo wrote:
05 Mar 2020, 16:49
The composition of fuel is tightly regulated and easily monitored. IMO this is a last place to seek for something wildly abnormal.
The regulator changed TR-2020 in December, compared to April (highlighted in bold):
19.8.2 Fuel density will also be checked and must be within 0.25% of the figure noted during pre-approval analysis of the fuel that is declared to be in use.
19.8.3 Fuel samples taken during an Event will be checked for conformity by using a gas chromatographic technique, which will compare the sample taken with an a reference sample of the fuel that is declared to be in use (older "approved fuel"). ...
19.8.4 ... If the deviations observed (above) by GC indicate that they are due to incidental mixing with another Formula One fuel to the one declared, but which has been approved by the FIA for use by the team, the fuel sample will be deemed to comply, provided that the adulterant fuel is present at no more than 10% in the sample. Any systematic abuse of mixed fuels will be deemed not to comply.

timbo
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Joined: 22 Oct 2007, 10:14

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Interesting!
So now the procedure seems to be similar to the tyres, i.e. declaring what fuel will be used before the event?

catv
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Joined: 07 Mar 2020, 15:16

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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The original text in TR-2020 was the same as the text in TR2019, so I think this control procedure has been used already for a long time. Now it will be harder - you can be punished for too frequent "accidental" fuel mixing.

Why would anyone need to specifically add another fuel, but not more than 10%? I'm not sure that anyone will make a very large profit this way, even if the flow meter is set to the declared fuel density. So Ferrari didn't use this... unless Shell has developed some super fuel ))

timbo
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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catv wrote:
07 Mar 2020, 22:58
The original text in TR-2020 was the same as the text in TR2019, so I think this control procedure has been used already for a long time. Now it will be harder - you can be punished for too frequent "accidental" fuel mixing.

Why would anyone need to specifically add another fuel, but not more than 10%? I'm not sure that anyone will make a very large profit this way, even if the flow meter is set to the declared fuel density. So Ferrari didn't use this... unless Shell has developed some super fuel ))
To me, it seems like a cost-control measure. I think there is an advantage in tailoring fuel/oil towards particular ambient conditions on a race day, even 0.05 s a lap over 60 laps is 3 seconds.

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Mr.G
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Joined: 10 Feb 2010, 22:52
Location: Slovakia

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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timbo wrote:
08 Mar 2020, 00:18
catv wrote:
07 Mar 2020, 22:58
The original text in TR-2020 was the same as the text in TR2019, so I think this control procedure has been used already for a long time. Now it will be harder - you can be punished for too frequent "accidental" fuel mixing.

Why would anyone need to specifically add another fuel, but not more than 10%? I'm not sure that anyone will make a very large profit this way, even if the flow meter is set to the declared fuel density. So Ferrari didn't use this... unless Shell has developed some super fuel ))
To me, it seems like a cost-control measure. I think there is an advantage in tailoring fuel/oil towards particular ambient conditions on a race day, even 0.05 s a lap over 60 laps is 3 seconds.
Or one fuel has one additive, second fuel has another additive and when they mix together magic happens :)
Art without engineering is dreaming. Engineering without art is calculating. Steven K. Roberts

timbo
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Joined: 22 Oct 2007, 10:14

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Mr.G wrote:
08 Mar 2020, 00:29
Or one fuel has one additive, second fuel has another additive and when they mix together magic happens :)
It is pretty much impossible. No funny stuff is allowed, and the description is not a "blacklist", but rather a "white list" of compounds that are permitted. Only 1% of compounds outside of the list are permitted.
When the fuel will be taken after the race, any compound which was not in the reference sample will be found and can be judged as going against
19.1.3 Any petrol, which appears to have been formulated in order to subvert the purpose of this regulation, will be deemed to be outside it.

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