Mercedes W11

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter does not belong here.
mmred
mmred
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Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:19 pm

Re: Mercedes W11

Post

Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:26 am
mmred wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:14 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:11 am

So door gaps are measured to 0.01mm? Pull the other one, it's got bells on it. :roll:
If you d read me you d know they are designed at 0.05 or less, but Just for saying i don't t design doors
What on a road car, outside of the engine/gearbox/differential is designed at that sort of tolerance? 0.05mm is less than human hair thickness.
Most of the visible parts have that tollerance.
Interaction between very large Pieces may vary this parameter. But small ones follow that rule
Last edited by mmred on Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:36 am, edited 2 times in total.

mmred
mmred
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Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:19 pm

Re: Mercedes W11

Post

Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:21 am
mmred wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:17 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:10 am

That's known as "clutching at straws". If the reason for doing it is tyre performance, and drag is reduced by a tiny amount, then the aero benefit is negligible compared to the the principle benefit.

If one wants to go down the "any aero benefit is bad" route, the entire suspension system is intended to keep the aero map of the car car happy as one of its design goals. Is suspension to be banned therefore?
You cant compare an aero Benefict with a mechanical One. That s Just a bad argument. You can consider negligible an aero effect if It s less than a standard minimum CD value. It requires a tunnel or CFD comparison between Two aero simulations. With activation and without. Not oranges with apples
If you need specialist tools to show a possible benefit, then it's not non-negligible. If the aero benefit between DAS-1 and DAS-0 is a few thousandths of a second compared to the tyre benefit of several additional laps then one can safely say "the aero isn't a factor".
We re not in the 1930 anymore. People use tools

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godlameroso
423
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:27 pm
Location: Miami FL

Re: Mercedes W11

Post

zibby43 wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 12:56 am
godlameroso wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 12:13 am
zibby43 wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 11:10 pm


Tell that to Red Bull. Sure doesn't make sense to pay your lawyers to analyze a gimmick. Doesn't make much sense to threaten to protest over a gimmick, either.
You mean the brake ducts? Protesting something is relatively low cost. You're going to pay your lawyers regardless, might as well put them to work.
It’s not low cost in terms of political capital in the paddock and credibility with the stewards. Which is why a protest is so rare, despite the low financial cost.
Asking FIA for clarification is common, are you saying that Mercedes should have more political clout over say Ferrari? Because teams kept protesting Ferrari who were never found to be in breach of the regulations.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: Mercedes W11

Post

godlameroso wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:28 am

Difference being that a driver isn't changing the position of the steering rack itself while the suspension does its thing. Why wouldn't they protest? RB wants to win fair and square, Mercedes needs gimmicks to stay ahead.
If it's a gimmick, race against it and win "fair and square". If you can't, then it's not a gimmick.

And RedBull have a track record of their own "gimmicks" over the years during the exhaust blown diffuser days. Want to win fair and square? Point the exhaust somewhere else, Adrian.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
642
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: Mercedes W11

Post

mmred wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:33 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:21 am
mmred wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:17 am


You cant compare an aero Benefict with a mechanical One. That s Just a bad argument. You can consider negligible an aero effect if It s less than a standard minimum CD value. It requires a tunnel or CFD comparison between Two aero simulations. With activation and without. Not oranges with apples
If you need specialist tools to show a possible benefit, then it's not non-negligible. If the aero benefit between DAS-1 and DAS-0 is a few thousandths of a second compared to the tyre benefit of several additional laps then one can safely say "the aero isn't a factor".
We re not in the 1930 anymore. People use tools
If you need to use CFD to show any sort of benefit that isn't shown by the stop watch, then you're clutching at straws.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
642
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: Mercedes W11

Post

godlameroso wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:33 am
zibby43 wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 12:56 am
godlameroso wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 12:13 am


You mean the brake ducts? Protesting something is relatively low cost. You're going to pay your lawyers regardless, might as well put them to work.
It’s not low cost in terms of political capital in the paddock and credibility with the stewards. Which is why a protest is so rare, despite the low financial cost.
Asking FIA for clarification is common, are you saying that Mercedes should have more political clout over say Ferrari? Because teams kept protesting Ferrari who were never found to be in breach of the regulations.
Actually, Ferrari were never found to be in compliance with the rules. The FIA's statement is clear on that. It's a subtle but hugely important difference.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

mmred
mmred
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Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:19 pm

Re: Mercedes W11

Post

Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:36 am
mmred wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:33 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:21 am

If you need specialist tools to show a possible benefit, then it's not non-negligible. If the aero benefit between DAS-1 and DAS-0 is a few thousandths of a second compared to the tyre benefit of several additional laps then one can safely say "the aero isn't a factor".
We re not in the 1930 anymore. People use tools
If you need to use CFD to show any sort of benefit that isn't shown by the stop watch, then you're clutching at straws.
CFD implies a Watch effect.
It s called track tunnel correlation.

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
642
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: Mercedes W11

Post

Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:35 am
godlameroso wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:28 am

Difference being that a driver isn't changing the position of the steering rack itself while the suspension does its thing. Why wouldn't they protest? RB wants to win fair and square, Mercedes needs gimmicks to stay ahead.
If it's a gimmick, race against it and win "fair and square". If you can't, then it's not a gimmick.

And RedBull have a track record of their own "gimmicks" over the years during the exhaust blown diffuser days. Want to win fair and square? Point the exhaust somewhere else, Adrian.
Yay, a down vote rather than a discussion. I'll take that as a win then... :lol:
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
642
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: Mercedes W11

Post

mmred wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:40 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:36 am
mmred wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:33 am


We re not in the 1930 anymore. People use tools
If you need to use CFD to show any sort of benefit that isn't shown by the stop watch, then you're clutching at straws.
CFD implies a Watch effect.
It s called track tunnel correlation.
If you run the car with and without DAS and the lap time is the same but tyre life is better with DAS, is that an aero benefit or a tyre usage benefit? That's a simple enough comparison. If the only thing that changes, within the ability to measure it, is tyre performance, then it's a tool that affects tyre performance not aero.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

zibby43
zibby43
429
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 11:16 am

Re: Mercedes W11

Post

godlameroso wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:33 am
zibby43 wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 12:56 am
godlameroso wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 12:13 am


You mean the brake ducts? Protesting something is relatively low cost. You're going to pay your lawyers regardless, might as well put them to work.
It’s not low cost in terms of political capital in the paddock and credibility with the stewards. Which is why a protest is so rare, despite the low financial cost.
Asking FIA for clarification is common, are you saying that Mercedes should have more political clout over say Ferrari? Because teams kept protesting Ferrari who were never found to be in breach of the regulations.
I am specifically talking about DAS and protesting.

Asking for clarification from the FIA and protesting with the stewards are 2 dramatically different things, with the former being commonplace and the latter being extreme.

Even Merc and RB didn’t protest the Ferrari PU last year.

mmred
mmred
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Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:19 pm

Re: Mercedes W11

Post

Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:51 am
mmred wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:40 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:36 am

If you need to use CFD to show any sort of benefit that isn't shown by the stop watch, then you're clutching at straws.
CFD implies a Watch effect.
It s called track tunnel correlation.
If you run the car with and without DAS and the lap time is the same but tyre life is better with DAS, is that an aero benefit or a tyre usage benefit? That's a simple enough comparison. If the only thing that changes, within the ability to measure it, is tyre performance, then it's a tool that affects tyre performance not aero.
Your scenario Is not the reality but Just your supposition.

Another scenario Is you gain on single lap too. Another scenario Is the car Is risky on straights in Rain condition. That degree gives the car an equilibrium called minimum
Last edited by mmred on Thu Mar 12, 2020 2:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
642
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: Mercedes W11

Post

mmred wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 2:00 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:51 am
mmred wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:40 am


CFD implies a Watch effect.
It s called track tunnel correlation.
If you run the car with and without DAS and the lap time is the same but tyre life is better with DAS, is that an aero benefit or a tyre usage benefit? That's a simple enough comparison. If the only thing that changes, within the ability to measure it, is tyre performance, then it's a tool that affects tyre performance not aero.
Your scenario Is not the reality but Just your supposition.

Another scenario Is you gain on single lap too. Another scenario Is the car Is risky on straights in Rain condition. That degree gives the car and equilibrium
Newey says it's an aero device. If you gain on a single lap, is that aero?

No one is saying "it's to make the car easier in the wet". They're saying "it's aero".
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

mmred
mmred
-2
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:19 pm

Re: Mercedes W11

Post

Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 2:05 am
mmred wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 2:00 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:51 am

If you run the car with and without DAS and the lap time is the same but tyre life is better with DAS, is that an aero benefit or a tyre usage benefit? That's a simple enough comparison. If the only thing that changes, within the ability to measure it, is tyre performance, then it's a tool that affects tyre performance not aero.
Your scenario Is not the reality but Just your supposition.

Another scenario Is you gain on single lap too. Another scenario Is the car Is risky on straights in Rain condition. That degree gives the car and equilibrium
Newey says it's an aero device. If you gain on a single lap, is that aero?

No one is saying "it's to make the car easier in the wet". They're saying "it's aero".
If you gain on a single lap It s aero for sure
If you gain in wheel cooling It can be aero too

If the car becomes unstable, not faster, in certain condition then i say It Is not a safe system

Do You Always deliberately change the meaning of what people say to you? Bah

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
642
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: Mercedes W11

Post

mmred wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 2:20 am


If you gain on a single lap It s aero for sure
If you gain in wheel cooling It can be aero too

If the car becomes unstable, not faster, in certain condition then i say It Is not a safe system

Do You Always deliberately change the meaning of what people say to you? Bah
If you gain on a single lap it could be tyre management - sometimes we've seen cars fall away at the end of a lap because the tyres have given up.

Wheel cooling can be aero but it's definitely wheel cooling. Wheel cooling benefits tyre performance much more than aero performance, I'd have thought.

If the car became unstable in certain conditions then the team won't run it. If it's not run in those conditions then it's not unsafe.

I have changed no meanings that I am aware of, although I'm guessing you're not a native English speaker which means there may be subtle differences in our understanding of meanings. If that is so, it is not my intention to use that to my advantage in our discussion. We're all here to learn from each other. 8)

(I sent a "congratulations on your engagement" card to some German friends recently. I had to spend some time looking up the correct German phrases for the card - my German is limited to asking for beer, food and a bed for the night! :lol: So I'm aware how working in non-native languages is tricky.)
Last edited by Just_a_fan on Thu Mar 12, 2020 2:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

holeindalip
holeindalip
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Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:58 am
Location: Decatur,IL USA

Re: Mercedes W11

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The real question is, during winter testing we're Mercedes seen using das while they had aero rakes attached? Can anyone confirm?