DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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Just_a_fan
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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apexcontrol wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 10:33 pm
Approximately 25 % of a passenger vehicle’s aerodynamic drag comes directly or indirectly from its wheels, indicating that the rim geometry is highly
F1 cars aren't "passenger vehicles"...
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

apexcontrol
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 11:58 pm
apexcontrol wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 10:33 pm
Approximately 25 % of a passenger vehicle’s aerodynamic drag comes directly or indirectly from its wheels, indicating that the rim geometry is highly
F1 cars aren't "passenger vehicles"...
exactly, you have my point.....the influence of a tyres/rim and rest of the assemble are much higher in f1
much higher speeds, way bigger cross-section % front car.
and way more need to find gain/to control it with tools&sims

thank you for underlining that!
Last edited by apexcontrol on Fri Mar 13, 2020 12:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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strad
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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But JaF the wheels do create drag in a big way. Passenger car, race car makes no difference. F1 teams have tried a few different ways to smooth the airflow. Also the tires bluntly intersecting with the air creates a large object that has to be pushed thru the air.
In drag racing they for the most part went from wire (motorcycle style) wheels to disc (Centerline) wheels when research showed that the part of the wheel with the spokes going forward was cutting thru the air and creating more drag. Wheel design makes a difference as well. I think someone mentioned the lip at the bead edge.
After reading a few articles on the subject I'd welcome your explanation showing otherwise. :?:
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

Slo Poke
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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At lights out a race car is heavy with fuel, so will tend to understeer if setup to. By midpoint of race that same car is likely to be proving itself ideal to race with and can be said to be reacting neutrally. During the final laps that very same car is even more likely to be behaving in an oversteery way.
DAS has been developed to, let’s say, neutralise both the primary phase and the tertiary.
All-in-all aerodynamics has little to do with it.

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Chuckjr
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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Slo Poke wrote:
Sat Mar 14, 2020 5:01 am
At lights out a race car is heavy with fuel, so will tend to understeer if setup to. By midpoint of race that same car is likely to be proving itself ideal to race with and can be said to be reacting neutrally. During the final laps that very same car is even more likely to be behaving in an oversteery way.
DAS has been developed to, let’s say, neutralise both the primary phase and the tertiary.
All-in-all aerodynamics has little to do with it.
It does not matter if they intended aero improvement or not. If Red Bull can show it has large aero affect, and we all know it does, it likely will be banned. Intent does not matter. Final affect does.

Slo Poke
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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Chuckjr:
Okay-doky then! I assumed, what with fia allowing it for this year it must be legal enough. As the only aero’ I’m ever interested in is front facial aspect. All the twaddle about vortices, wake and suchlike is just click bait to me.
Thanks for straightening me out though.

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subcritical71
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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Chuckjr wrote:
Sun Mar 15, 2020 9:09 am
Slo Poke wrote:
Sat Mar 14, 2020 5:01 am
At lights out a race car is heavy with fuel, so will tend to understeer if setup to. By midpoint of race that same car is likely to be proving itself ideal to race with and can be said to be reacting neutrally. During the final laps that very same car is even more likely to be behaving in an oversteery way.
DAS has been developed to, let’s say, neutralise both the primary phase and the tertiary.
All-in-all aerodynamics has little to do with it.
It does not matter if they intended aero improvement or not. If Red Bull can show it has large aero affect, and we all know it does, it likely will be banned. Intent does not matter. Final affect does.
Where in the rules does it say this? The words I read a lot are ‘primary purpose’ not ‘primary affect’.

AJI
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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subcritical71 wrote:
Sun Mar 15, 2020 1:24 pm
Chuckjr wrote:
Sun Mar 15, 2020 9:09 am
Slo Poke wrote:
Sat Mar 14, 2020 5:01 am
At lights out a race car is heavy with fuel, so will tend to understeer if setup to. By midpoint of race that same car is likely to be proving itself ideal to race with and can be said to be reacting neutrally. During the final laps that very same car is even more likely to be behaving in an oversteery way.
DAS has been developed to, let’s say, neutralise both the primary phase and the tertiary.
All-in-all aerodynamics has little to do with it.
It does not matter if they intended aero improvement or not. If Red Bull can show it has large aero affect, and we all know it does, it likely will be banned. Intent does not matter. Final affect does.
Where in the rules does it say this? The words I read a lot are ‘primary purpose’ not ‘primary affect’.
I'm not even sure why DAS is still being discussed? As much as I love the ingenuity of it, we're never going to see it used in a race...

Just_a_fan
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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Chuckjr wrote:
Sun Mar 15, 2020 9:09 am
It does not matter if they intended aero improvement or not. If Red Bull can show it has large aero affect, and we all know it does, it likely will be banned. Intent does not matter. Final affect does.
A. We don't know what aero affect the system has. Indeed, we don't know why DAS was designed. RedBull claim aero because they know that's the "sexy" offense. Also, they'll roll out Newey and hope everyone will prostrate themselves before his greatness.

B. The thing that is important is "purpose" not "effect". The rules say things must have a primary purpose that is not aero. That there is an aero effect is not an issue. RedBull would need to prove the primary purpose was aero. You can bet that Mercedes will have a lot of evidence to show the primary purpose is tyre life/wear/temperature or whatever.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Just_a_fan
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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AJI wrote:
Sun Mar 15, 2020 1:34 pm

I'm not even sure why DAS is still being discussed? As much as I love the ingenuity of it, we're never going to see it used in a race...
They'll run it either at the start to see if they're allowed by stewards. Or they'll run it at the end if the season has gone their way and a protest won't matter.

I wouldn't be surprised if RedBull are already designing their own version, just in case.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

toraabe
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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Red bull have enough time to develop their own DAS until June. Perhaps Ferrari and Mc laren will follow.

AJI
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Sun Mar 15, 2020 1:40 pm
AJI wrote:
Sun Mar 15, 2020 1:34 pm

I'm not even sure why DAS is still being discussed? As much as I love the ingenuity of it, we're never going to see it used in a race...
They'll run it either at the start to see if they're allowed by stewards. Or they'll run it at the end if the season has gone their way and a protest won't matter.

I wouldn't be surprised if RedBull are already designing their own version, just in case.
Well, there's every possibility that RB and Ferrari have been working on it since the first test (Ferrari even alluded to a similar system from years ago), but right now it's irrelevant. Due to recent events on the planet earth that are much bigger than F1 could ever dream of being, it's never going to be used...

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subcritical71
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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AJI wrote:
Sun Mar 15, 2020 1:59 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Sun Mar 15, 2020 1:40 pm
AJI wrote:
Sun Mar 15, 2020 1:34 pm

I'm not even sure why DAS is still being discussed? As much as I love the ingenuity of it, we're never going to see it used in a race...
They'll run it either at the start to see if they're allowed by stewards. Or they'll run it at the end if the season has gone their way and a protest won't matter.

I wouldn't be surprised if RedBull are already designing their own version, just in case.
Well, there's every possibility that RB and Ferrari have been working on it since the first test (Ferrari even alluded to a similar system from years ago), but right now it's irrelevant. Due to recent events on the planet earth that are much bigger than F1 could ever dream of being, it's never going to be used...
Ferrari factory has been shut so unless they have something ready to go they are going to have a tough time. On that topic, this virus is giving some teams a time advantage. F1 probably need to consider this and possibly ‘summer break’ the season until further notice. Which will surely have an influence on next years rules changes and preparations. (This is becoming quit the snowball rolling down the hill)

AJI
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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subcritical71 wrote:
Sun Mar 15, 2020 2:13 pm
...F1 probably need to consider this and possibly ‘summer break’ the season until further notice. Which will surely have an influence on next years rules changes and preparations. (This is becoming quit the snowball rolling down the hill)
sub71, while I quite enjoy your posts, realistically, this is it for F1... There's no coming back from this, and you know what, it's probably for the best.
I hope to see you on whatever site supports the next version of the new pinnacle of motorsport, whatever and whenever that may be.

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subcritical71
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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AJI wrote:
Sun Mar 15, 2020 2:25 pm
subcritical71 wrote:
Sun Mar 15, 2020 2:13 pm
...F1 probably need to consider this and possibly ‘summer break’ the season until further notice. Which will surely have an influence on next years rules changes and preparations. (This is becoming quit the snowball rolling down the hill)
sub71, while I quite enjoy your posts, realistically, this is it for F1... There's no coming back from this, and you know what, it's probably for the best.
I hope to see you on whatever site supports the next version of the new pinnacle of motorsport, whatever and whenever that may be.
I'm getting off topic here and while I don't share your vision of F1 this is the perfect opportunity to promote eSports. I personally have never watched any eSport, but imagine the exposure if you could get a full field of current F1 drivers competing against one another. It might even satisfy some peoples F1 addition. I don't think its my cup of tea, but who knows.