Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Tommy Cookers
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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timbo wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:35 am
.....the description is not a "blacklist", but rather a "white list" of compounds that are permitted. Only 1% of compounds outside of the list are permitted....
it's not a list of compounds that are permitted

it's a list of broad chemical classification 'family' names each of which covers typically hundreds of different compounds
just as road fuel contains worldwide c. 10000 different compounds most of which haven't been isolated and evaluated as fuels

eg isooctane and octane are regardable as chemically identical compounds but are wildly different as fuels
isooctane has an octane number of 100 but octane has an octane number of minus 6
similarly with isooctane and triptane - triptane's ON is off the clock

timbo
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 2:08 pm
timbo wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:35 am
.....the description is not a "blacklist", but rather a "white list" of compounds that are permitted. Only 1% of compounds outside of the list are permitted....
it's not a list of compounds that are permitted

it's a list of broad chemical classification 'family' names each of which covers typically hundreds of different compounds
just as road fuel contains worldwide c. 10000 different compounds most of which haven't been isolated and evaluated as fuels

eg isooctane and octane are regardable as chemically identical compounds but are wildly different as fuels
isooctane has an octane number of 100 but octane has an octane number of minus 6
similarly with isooctane and triptane - triptane's ON is off the clock
Well, yes, it can be called a white list of groups of compounds, but the point is in the fuel, or blend of fuels which follow the description in the rules, there is (virtually) no possibility for "funny" chemistry.

By "funny" I mean chemical reactions between components of, say, fuel blend A and fuel blend B, which would produce new compounds (akin to how bi-component chemical weapons work).

The compound families described in the list are not very reactive, and there is very little space (only 5 mg/L of metals) for the inclusion of catalyst.
Last edited by timbo on Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

xavier
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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What if they had two fuels that don't mix (like oil and water don't mix), with a higher density fuel at the bottom of the tank. Since the density is higher, it tricks the FFM calibrated for the lighter fuel and it allows more mass flow. The heavier fuel gets burned first and the lighter fuel remains for inspection.

timbo
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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xavier wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:07 pm
What if they had two fuels that don't mix (like oil and water don't mix), with a higher density fuel at the bottom of the tank. Since the density is higher, it tricks the FFM calibrated for the lighter fuel and it allows more mass flow. The heavier fuel gets burned first and the lighter fuel remains for inspection.
Pretty much impossible within the chemistry permitted by the rules. Out of liquids immiscible with petrol, only methanol makes any sense, but the amount of methanol one can add before exceeding the permitted oxygen content in the fuel is only about 7%.
Also, with all the sloshing happening in the tank, the fuel will be in the form of the fine emulsion on the fuel pump inlet.

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Mr.G
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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xavier wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:07 pm
What if they had two fuels that don't mix (like oil and water don't mix), with a higher density fuel at the bottom of the tank. Since the density is higher, it tricks the FFM calibrated for the lighter fuel and it allows more mass flow. The heavier fuel gets burned first and the lighter fuel remains for inspection.
Interesting idea, but this would only work for "static" application. During the race, it would mix together. Eventually, it would separate again but will need some time...
Art without engineering is dreaming. Engineering without art is calculating. Steven K. Roberts

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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So doing a tiny bitbif research on these flow meters and the speed of sound..

The FIA, if they hire the appropriate experts, should be able to measure the speeds of sound, possibly DENSITYin the declared fuels and mixtures of them as they flow through the meter. This is possible because the flow meters have that function. The accuracy of this function is of course something else to find out.

When mixing two fluids it is possible that density and speed of sound properties will change. This change can be tabulated. It is hoewer affected by inter molecule associations or molecule dissociations depending on temperature and pressure.

FIA can tabulate this.. But have they bothered to?


Fuel A - density of FIA lower limit
Fuel B - density of FIA upper limit

92% of Fuel A, 8% Fuel B.
New density if for example is 103% more dense than fuel A.

Fuel B was used in practice and qualifying.

Declare fuel A for the race.

Declare 95kg total fuel for the race.

Need 95kg for the race.

Ad 4% extra fuel A. (cheating volume)

Fuel tank..

10kg Fuel B, 94kg Fuel A.

The flow meter only registers at the the denser volume..


Counter point..
If FIA put the right personel in place they can measure the desnity of the fuel "in-situ."
They can measure the speed of spound too.
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LH44

timbo
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 10:37 pm
The FIA, if they hire the appropriate experts, should be able to measure the speeds of sound, possibly DENSITYin the declared fuels and mixtures of them as they flow through the meter. This is possible because the flow meters have that function. The accuracy of this function is of course something else to find out.
They can do all of this before the race using something like Anton Paar DMA 5000.
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 10:37 pm
It is hoewer affected by inter molecule associations or molecule dissociations depending on temperature and pressure.
Once again, within the chemistry permitted by the regs (i.e., mostly hydrocarbon fuel, with only small amount of oxygen and nitrogen-containing compounds, and even less metals) the different fuel blends will behave close to an ideal solution, which means the properties of say 50/50 m/m mixture is right between the initial fuels.
So I don't know where to gain anything.
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 10:37 pm
The flow meter only registers at the the denser volume..
The flow meters are ultrasonic, they should be able to determine the speed of sound and thus the density, so they should be immune to alterations of density.
If they aren't then I'm sure everybody will be doing this.
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 10:37 pm
If FIA put the right personel in place they can measure the desnity of the fuel "in-situ."
They can measure the speed of spound too.
They take fuel samples after the race. The density and speed of sound measurement is a routine one.

Yeah, and I raised this point before -- if the "trick" involved something to do with the fuel, why the power advantage was only apparent during Q3 and the first lap of the race?

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etusch
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Hope this is not double post


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3jawchuck
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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etusch wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 12:11 pm
Hope this is not double post
https://youtu.be/LS47125tUzk
It is a multiple repost, but from quite a while ago. So whatever, it's a nice find.
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