Mercedes changes 2020 livery in fight against racism

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Wynters
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Re: Mercedes changes 2020 livery in fight against racism

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mertol wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:02 pm
I don't have to prove anything. You are the one with the extraordinary claim.
Good thing I posted evidence to support it then. Fortunately, your response speaks eloquently for the robustness of your position. I don't think further conversation is necessary.

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mertol
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Re: Mercedes changes 2020 livery in fight against racism

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Such good evidence it doesn't even mention what it is disproportionate to.

Wynters
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Re: Mercedes changes 2020 livery in fight against racism

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Phil wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:04 pm
Isn't criminality also higher among blacks?
This is beginning to get into fairly complicated territory.*

Fortunately, we don't have to go there as the point you raise is irrelevant to the conversation I was having with Mertol. To summarise, Mertol once more attempted to obfuscate his bias, this time by taking the bold position that the deaths weren't disproportionate. I provided proof that they were, he didn't read it and refused to provide any evidence to back up his own claims.

There's only so much moving of the goal posts that I'm willing to see as good faith and out-of-hand dismissals of factual data is a leap too far.

*Whilst I appreciate this is likely a genuine question and, unlike Mertol, I think this is in good faith, this is a) very complex, b) likely beyond my skills to clearly and accurately dissect and present to a level that either (let alone both) of us would be satisfied with and c) requires more time than I have. So, with apologies, I'll have to leave this for someone else to delve into.

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mertol
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Re: Mercedes changes 2020 livery in fight against racism

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You didn't read past that one liner either. It doesn't explain what it is disproportionate to. There is no moving of goal posts. The goal always was there is no racial bias.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Mercedes changes 2020 livery in fight against racism

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Mertol is obviously sheltered and hasn't sought to do any serious research on socio-politcal issues on the matter. No point in trying to explain anything to him here. I have met similar persons like him and you will never elucidate him of anything. Let him be.

I think the topic was how Mercedes plan to support the fight against racism with the black livery. It seems Mertol here is proof that the livery change can only help a tiny amount, some persons will never take action! :lol:
Not driving a Mercedes? Work harder!

V12-POWER
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Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Wynters wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:23 pm
V12-POWER wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:08 pm
My stance is clear in the post, call it however you want, doesn't change the fact that BLM movement is way out of proportion and hides the real purpose of it.
What is the proportionate response to decades of extra-judicial killings?

Have those responses already been tried?

Why do you think that the real purpose of a movement sparked by an extra-judicial killing (under the Democrats) and founded years before the Republicans came to power, "is to make politics against the Republican party"? Were the original protests, during the Obama administration, just a clever decoy to hide their true purpose?
lmao what? go and take a look at what 90% of artists, actors, actresses, athletes and pretty much anyone with a big reach is doing. why do I think it is against republican party? lol...

are you really asking me to explain why do they post pro-biden things. "Decades of extra-judicial killings" you're telling me that the event that burst the bubble was the death of a criminal. No criminal deserves to be put on a pedestal, much less to be the face of a worldwide revolt

Now was it necessary to kill him? MAYBE not.

you can be damn sure Floyd wouldn't have had a problem pointing a gun to you in order to feed his drug addiction. Now think about the people marching for a guy like that.

And if we play along your point, I still fail to see how "decades of extra judicial killings" has anything to do with race, race of the offender or race of the "victim" To me a criminal is a criminal, some people want to justify crimes because of skin color.

Reverse the roles, black cop and white "victim" - Would there be a "white lives matter" movement then? I really doubt, it would go on normally as "just another" incident

V12-POWER
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Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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double post
Last edited by V12-POWER on Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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mertol
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Re: Mercedes changes 2020 livery in fight against racism

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Yea that's not an argument, zealot.

An argument looks like this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_ ... statistics
Overall, black Americans are arrested at 2.6 times the per-capita rate of all other Americans, and this ratio is even higher for murder (6.3 times) and robbery (8.1 times)
So they are several times more likely to be involved in crimes and still have less fatalities than whites. If anything the bias is towards whites.

V12-POWER
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Re: Mercedes changes 2020 livery in fight against racism

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:27 pm
mertol wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:18 pm
Wynters wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:11 pm
Qualified immunity and the relative lack of consequences that officers involved in these events face suggest that, whilst it may not be actively encouraged, the institution does turn a blind, even protective, eye.
Still don't see where race comes into this. And if it was such a big problem surely they could find someone that hasn't threatened a pregnant woman to be the face of the campaign.
Straw man argument. Floyd's other crimes aren't relevant, are they? Or is someone having done wrong in the past sufficient to allow summary killing by police on the street?

This death was the straw that broke the camel's back, caused the dam to break, etc.
Ok so let's stand by your logic. If HItler came back from the dead, and he gets killed by a cop. Would you come back and say "someone having done wrong in the past sufficient to allow summary killing by police on the street" OR "Hitler's other crimes aren't relevant, are they?"

in your eyes, would he (hitler) deserve to be the face of a worldwide campaign?

whatever excuse you come up with has major flaws

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Phil
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Re: Mercedes changes 2020 livery in fight against racism

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Wynters wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:20 pm
Phil wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:04 pm
Isn't criminality also higher among blacks?
This is beginning to get into fairly complicated territory.*

Fortunately, we don't have to go there as the point you raise is irrelevant to the conversation I was having with Mertol. To summarise, Mertol once more attempted to obfuscate his bias, this time by taking the bold position that the deaths weren't disproportionate. I provided proof that they were, he didn't read it and refused to provide any evidence to back up his own claims.

There's only so much moving of the goal posts that I'm willing to see as good faith and out-of-hand dismissals of factual data is a leap too far.

*Whilst I appreciate this is likely a genuine question and, unlike Mertol, I think this is in good faith, this is a) very complex, b) likely beyond my skills to clearly and accurately dissect and present to a level that either (let alone both) of us would be satisfied with and c) requires more time than I have. So, with apologies, I'll have to leave this for someone else to delve into.
It was a genuine question, one that I believe to be relevant. For example; As a police officer, my threat assessment would be very dependent on who I engage and in which context. If I was for example engaging an individual who typically has a history of violance (just an example), I'd be on higher alert than for example when confronting an elder person. Hence, if there is indeed more criminality among certain people or regions, I would assume cops to be different too. Again, don't understand this the wrong way as if I am suggesting that certain people are more criminal than others. I'm working under the assumption that there is a difference in criminality (statistically speaking) and that this difference also has a impact on how officers might deal with under certain situations.

I don't know Mertol nor do I know his bias, but IMO he is asking sound questions and applying logical reasoning so far. As per his example; "I wouldn't get chocked because I wouldn't resist an arrest" to be spot on. The other examples of being shot when simply following orders by the police, well, they might exist, but again, systematic? I find that very very hard to believe. Provoking can have many different forms too, like being argumentative, implying threats etc. Again, I'm not going to defend every single case of innocent shooting in history, but I've seen and read many cases where supposedly an innocent was shot, only to later find that the relevant context wasn't reported and that the whole thing could have been avoided if no resistance had taken place.

And even if there are cops that do abuse their power and badge and go out and seek "trouble" - are they doing it while being racially motivated or are they simply getting their kicks from exercising power over others?

Then my last point; If afro-americans truly felt they were targeted systematically (a narrative that is very popular it seems), perhaps is also causing them to resist arrests more often? Or maybe it's also due to the dark history of the USA of slavery that some feel no-one, even a police officer, especially when white, should have power over them?

These are genuine thoughts and questions. With world wide protests and more weight given to the narrative of racial injustice, I can't help but think this is all leading to more problems and friction as cases that have zero racial motivation are portrayed as such in the media, leading to more hate and more violence. :idea:

In other words, if I felt people like me were systematically targeted and shot by the police, perhaps I too would behave differently in such a situation (feeling threatened and my life being at stake). Or maybe it would make me be extra careful, not to provoke and as helpful as I can?
Last edited by Phil on Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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turbof1
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Re: Mercedes changes 2020 livery in fight against racism

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Sociological, there is a reason why black americans are being more the subject of criminal events. They often (higher than average) grow up in poor neighbourhoods, in poor families with little to no chances in society, little chance on a decent education. Many will then cultivate a hate for society and go down a criminal path (certainly not all though). Infact, whatever your color is, everybody being born and growing up in that situation has a higher chance to go down the wrong path. Yes, even the people now thinking "I am sweet little whether or not white angel, I would never!".

People often see criminalism as the cause of racism, while just in many cases it's the consequence.

But that sociological fact is often forgotten, because nobody wants to tackle that problem that will likely take a generation or 2 to fix at maximum effort. Nobody cares about that, not Trump, not Biden, not Obama.

Also, I loathe the simplification that "if you don't resist, you aren't going to be killed". While technically untrue on its own as clearly people have been killed because an officer judged something innocent completely wrong, should none-agressive resisting be met with deadly force? That's disproportional.
Phil wrote:In other words, if I felt people like me were systematically targeted and shot by the police, perhaps I too would behave differently in such a situation (feeling threatened and my life being at stake). Or maybe it would make me be extra careful, not to provoke and as helpful as I can?
That's logic people in North Korea use to not get murdered by their dictator. Nobody should be careful to not provoke a disproportionate reaction.
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nzjrs
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Re: Mercedes changes 2020 livery in fight against racism

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Phil wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:17 pm
These are genuine thoughts and questions. With world wide protests and more weight given to the narrative of racial injustice, I can't help but think this is all leading to more problems and friction as cases that have zero racial motivation are portrayed as such in the media, leading to more hate and more violence. :idea:
Yip, and this is the center of the whole 'scissor statement' and the 'selective power of social media' (in the natural selection sense) thesis I raised in my previous post.

We've spent more than 10 years building a worldwide system for selecting and amplifying outrage generating memes into the global culture. We are still near the beginning of this social and psychological experiment, but to my eyes I don't think the results have been particularly encouraging.

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mertol
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Re: Mercedes changes 2020 livery in fight against racism

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https://www.povertyusa.org/facts
Correlation between poverty and crime seems about right if you ignore native Americans. But I am not convinced the reason for poverty is racism. Still they rebel about police bias not poverty.

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turbof1
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Re: Mercedes changes 2020 livery in fight against racism

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nzjrs wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:30 pm
Phil wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:17 pm
These are genuine thoughts and questions. With world wide protests and more weight given to the narrative of racial injustice, I can't help but think this is all leading to more problems and friction as cases that have zero racial motivation are portrayed as such in the media, leading to more hate and more violence. :idea:
Yip, and this is the center of the whole 'scissor statement' and the 'selective power of social media' (in the natural selection sense) thesis I raised in my previous post.

We've spent more than 10 years building a worldwide system for selecting and amplifying outrage generating memes into the global culture. We are still near the beginning of this social and psychological experiment, but to my eyes I don't think the results have been particularly encouraging.
The issue is that the debate also got way too sensitive. It would be highly foolish to state "there is no racism". There is. But also, people are talking about defunding police, about paying damages to former african colonies (I will get there in a moment), about single mindedly focussing on one race, etc. While:

-Defunding the police isn't going to solve having officers who can't control themselves. Rather, I'd see a raise in funding and all of that raise going to proper training in stress management and situation assessment.

-Something popular in my country: Congo, a former colony of Belgium, should be getting payment as restitution for the horrible deeds of our former king Leopold II. Now granted, that *sshole did horrible things. However, paying back damages to Congo right now will not go the people as the political situation there is highly volatile. They are better off sending a peaceforce in there, dethrown and dismantle the current political situation and putting up fair democratic elections.

-The BLM movement should really encompass more than just one race.
#AeroFrodo

nzjrs
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Re: Mercedes changes 2020 livery in fight against racism

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turbof1 wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:40 pm
The issue is that the debate also got way too sensitive. It would be highly foolish to state "there is no racism". There is. But also, people are talking about defunding police, about paying damages to former african colonies (I will get there in a moment), about single mindedly focussing on one race, etc. While:
Agree, but this is *by design*. Whatever the hot-button issue of the day is, it got selected to be that way through the collective action of outrage selection machines (humans). The only way to stay sane is to not play the game, in my opinion.