DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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sosic2121
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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e30ernest wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 7:08 am
sosic2121 wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 6:52 am
"10.2.3 No adjustment may be made to any suspension system while the car is in motion"

If this quote is true, I can't see how it can possibly be legal.
That doesn't apply because DAS was considered as part of the steering, which has its own set of rules. Read the stewards' decision on Red Bull's protest.
That's just hilarious.

e30ernest
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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sosic2121 wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 7:13 am
e30ernest wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 7:08 am
sosic2121 wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 6:52 am
"10.2.3 No adjustment may be made to any suspension system while the car is in motion"

If this quote is true, I can't see how it can possibly be legal.
That doesn't apply because DAS was considered as part of the steering, which has its own set of rules. Read the stewards' decision on Red Bull's protest.
That's just hilarious.
The steering system and the suspension have different sets of rules. If 10.2.3 applied to steering systems, then any form of steering will be illegal.

The stewards' findings were very clear on why the DAS was legal. Even Red Bull considers this a closed book now.

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Moore77
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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sosic2121 wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 6:52 am
"10.2.3 No adjustment may be made to any suspension system while the car is in motion"

If this quote is true, I can't see how it can possibly be legal.
DAS is an extension to the steering. It isn't doing anything that the steering isn't doing. While a conventional steering changes the toe angle for both wheels in symmetric direction, DAS is changing it in assymetric direction. Steering can be moved horizontally and vertically as per the regulations. While nobody was utilizing the vertical motion of the steering system, Mercedes have used that capability for DAS.
Hence, it isn't changing suspension beyond what is allowed for a steering system. So, it's legal.
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sosic2121
sosic2121
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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So the next step is adjustable camber...
DAS is actively changing suspension setup. FIA should have made it clear the first time it was approached by Mercedes.
They haven't and now we to pretend that DAS and toe angle is not part of suspension #-o

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subcritical71
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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sosic2121 wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 7:47 am
So the next step is adjustable camber...
DAS is actively changing suspension setup. FIA should have made it clear the first time it was approached by Mercedes.
They haven't and now we to pretend that DAS and toe angle is not part of suspension #-o
By that thinking, doesn’t traditional steering also become illegal? The loophole exists and has been plugged for 2021 by a rewrite of the affected regulations pertaining to steering.

TwanV
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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The way of protest by red bull rings alarm bells, my feeling is they are going to milk the explanation by FIA for a million other reasons. The first one is parc ferme.

I think the decision is strange.. Also this cooperation with FIA, the regulating body helped them last year to "lawyer out the legality", and then decided to ban it in 2021 but not in 2020.. Why not in 2020?

Jolle
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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TwanV wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 10:11 am
The way of protest by red bull rings alarm bells, my feeling is they are going to milk the explanation by FIA for a million other reasons. The first one is parc ferme.

I think the decision is strange.. Also this cooperation with FIA, the regulating body helped them last year to "lawyer out the legality", and then decided to ban it in 2021 but not in 2020.. Why not in 2020?
Same reason they banned the F-duct, double diffuser and the double DRS the year after it's inception. To allow a team to pick the fruits of their innovation. I think it's still strange for instance that they banned the McLaren corner brake mis season.

falonso81
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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Can the car turn while the steering column is drawn back? If it can't wouldnt this be considered dangerous? What if the DAS gets stuck during a race?

e30ernest
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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falonso81 wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 5:17 pm
Can the car turn while the steering column is drawn back? If it can't wouldnt this be considered dangerous? What if the DAS gets stuck during a race?
I think there was a video of Bottas making mid-corner DAS changes so yes the steering is fully functional even with DAS engaged so that isn't a problem.

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Bandit1216
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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Hi All

Now DAS is deemed legal, what do you think about DAS for red bull (and others). Or should we discuss technical implementation in a different topic?

I 'm surprised it's deemed very difficult to incorporate in existing cars to be honest.

Double helix - double rack solution seems no rocket since to me. And why not use a floating steering rack so ackermann changes on the fly. Or I'm I ignorant now?

Just_a_fan
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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I guess one thing that needs to be looked at is the packaging of the device. In an already congested part of the car, finding room to add the mechanism might be trickier than designing the device itself.

There was discussion about the RedBull have an unusual front suspension layout already - the steering arm location/routing - so maybe this might make it trickier to fit too.

It would be interesting to discuss the system further.
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Just_a_fan
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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TwanV wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 10:11 am
The way of protest by red bull rings alarm bells, my feeling is they are going to milk the explanation by FIA for a million other reasons. The first one is parc ferme.
What aspect of parc ferme can they play with?
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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Big Tea
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 9:43 am
TwanV wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 10:11 am
The way of protest by red bull rings alarm bells, my feeling is they are going to milk the explanation by FIA for a million other reasons. The first one is parc ferme.
What aspect of parc ferme can they play with?
Changing suspension/steering angles between quali and race?
We are standing on the shoulders of Giants. So watch your feet.

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Holm86
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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Big Tea wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 12:30 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 9:43 am
TwanV wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 10:11 am
The way of protest by red bull rings alarm bells, my feeling is they are going to milk the explanation by FIA for a million other reasons. The first one is parc ferme.
What aspect of parc ferme can they play with?
Changing suspension/steering angles between quali and race?
So you're not allowed to steer the car??

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Big Tea
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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Holm86 wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 12:51 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 12:30 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 9:43 am

What aspect of parc ferme can they play with?
Changing suspension/steering angles between quali and race?
So you're not allowed to steer the car??
:D There's always one.
We are standing on the shoulders of Giants. So watch your feet.